104. How to get paid your worth
If you haven’t got a pay rise in years, are struggling to charge your worth or feeling pushed around by the powers that be, then THIS is the episode for you. My guest Meggie Palmer - a former international TV journalist and founder of PepTalkHer - shares so many practical tips to negotiate pay rises, have influence at work and get the appreciation you deserve.
A lot of our conversation is in the context of TV newsrooms, so if you're a young TV journo or aspiring one, this is must-listen kinda content!
Transcript
Welcome back to That Voice Podcast. A huge welcome if you're here for the first time! If you haven't got a pay rise in years, if you're struggling to charge your worth, if you are feeling pushed around by the powers that be, and you are ready to know your worth and make it mother effing heard, then this is the episode for you. Also, if you're a young journalist, this is must listen. Must listen content. This is going to be prescribed listening for all of my broadcast voice journalism students. And that's because today I'm joined by the incredibly talented Meggie Palmer. Maggie is an experienced international news reporter. We both worked for the same network actually at different times. And it was when she realized she was getting paid significantly less than her male counterparts, that injustice totally infuriated her understandably, and it set Meggie on a path to where she is now.
She's living in New York and heading up an amazing company called PepTalkHer. PepTalkHer is on a mission to close the pay gap. In this episode, we cover super practical tips to prepare for pay rise negotiations, to negotiate once you're in there. And we also chat about how to handle rejection and build better relationships even in COVID times. Meggie also shares something super valuable and offer at the moment. It's a free five-day challenge, just five minutes a day to know your worth. The Know Your Worth Challenge kicks off on Feb 14th, Valentine's day. Or if you're single, forget V-Day it's Me Day, honey! And I have a special link for you to join in the show notes. It's peptalkher.com/sally. And if you haven't paused and signed up to that right now, believe me, you will be by the end of this episode. Let's dive in.
Sally:
Meggie Palmer. Welcome to That Voice Podcast!
Meggie:
Hello, Sally. I'm so excited!
Sally:
Oh, Meggie. I'm so glad I connected with you. As you know, we're both former TV journalists and what you're doing with PepTalkHer, I absolutely love because I am always talking about giving yourself a pep talk, giving others pep talks. And I just love the whole concept of the pep talk. Maybe from my early days in Netball or something like that.
Meggie:
You need here, if you need. The Netball vibe, I love that.
Sally:
Yay! And here is the halftime oranges, while you're at it. So let us know how did this come about?
Meggie:
Yeah, so I used to love Netball too, who knew? I grew up on the Goldie, clearly from my accent. I'm an Aussie, but I actually live in New York city now. And it's kind of funny, Sally, when I reflect on like the twists and turns of my career as a journalist and you know how I've ended up here. Now, I'm not doing journalism at all, which is kind of weird. You know, sometimes you have those sliding door moments in your life and your career. I've had a couple of those, like quite pivotal. Like I literally remember the moment where I was like, "Ooh, do I stay or do I go, you know, or do I say something or do I not?" Cause I know full well, if I do say something, it takes me down a certain pathway that I can't come back from.
Meggie:
And so long story short, I actually found out Sally, I spent 15 years or so as a journo. And at one point in the middle of my career, I found out that I was paid quite a lot less actually than the dudes who I sat next to. So I was like, I might just say something about that. Doesn't seem very cool. So I raised the issue and they were like, "Oh yeah. So if you don't like it, why don't you quit or take us to court then?" And I was like, "Sorry, what?" And they're like, "Yeah, you can quit or we'll see you in court." And I was like, "All right, brothers, we're getting a lawyer." So I had to get a lawyer. So it was very stressful. For omebody who was pretty young and honestly, Sally, I was so naive. I had no idea what was going on.
Sally:
But Meggie, can I just say, hell yes. Hell yes! Because there's so many people listening to this. As you know, I work with lots of young broadcast journalists just starting out in their career and I can relate to this as well. It's a real power imbalance, especially when you're trying to make your way. And so, to be able to make that decision quit or take us to court, take it to court, bitches. I love it!
Meggie:
Yeah. Well it wasn't an easy decision and you know, I'm like, I'm a real crowdsourcer of my decisions. My fiance's like, "Can you just make a decision?" Like even like what ice cream do I want? What do I want for dinner? I'm not a quick decision maker.
Sally:
Are you a Libra?
Meggie:
I'm not, I'm a Cancer. And I've got no idea what that means, who knows? I'm terrible at star sign situations, but like I emailed like my kind of board of advisors, like maybe 10 or 20 mates. And I was like, what do I do? Cause I loved my job. And I was like, I don't want to cause drama necessarily. But I will. And everyone was like, "Don't do it. Don't say anything. You're so lucky to have a job. You've got an amazing job."
Meggie:
Like, "Do not do it. It's a small industry. You'll never work again." So I got all this feedback that was like, just cup it and shut up. And I was like stuff that. Absolutely not. Cause I was just like injustice pisses me off, Sally. Like I was so pissed off. I was like, is this a joke? And also I was like, I'm pretty confident. And like I knew I was excellent at my job. I knew I would get another job. I had savings in the bank, so I wasn't gonna be on the street. And I was like, if I had kids or a mortgage or if I was in a perilous financial situation, I would have to just cup it. And this must happen all the time. And of course I know now that it does happen all the time, I just didn't realize then.
Sally:
And can I ask how big was that pay disparity?
Meggie:
So honestly it was pretty complicated. And I honestly couldn't even tell you, but it was in the conditions as well in the contract. So it was kind of, there was a lot going on, but it was significant. It was really significant. Put it that way. Yeah. Wasn't good.
Sally:
Yeah. Gosh. And so was that the motivation for what you're doing now? Is that where it all started?
Meggie:
Yeah, absolutely. It was like, I felt like the blinkers were off. Like all of a sudden it was like, "Oh, welcome to the real world girl!" Like I was kinda, I dunno, I'm a child of the eighties and I was raised, girls can do anything. And my parents to their credit, I literally lived this life where I thought I could do anything cause I just didn't even know. Like, I dunno if it's naivety, I'm not sure if that's my privilege or a bit of both, but truly I never really thought that I couldn't do something or that I would ever be treated differently cause that's what I'd been led to believe and I'd stupidly or otherwise agreed and thought that that was the case. So it was this pivotal moment and I was like, well it was kind of stressful. Honestly, Sally and I got like a bit of anxiety.
Meggie:
I didn't really leave my apartment cause I was like so stressed. I know it's a first world problem in this game of life, a hundred percent. But at the time it was it, you know, you are in it and it feels like a big deal to you.
Sally:
Yeah, absolutely.
Meggie:
But like I was like, "Well there's gonna be something good from this." Right? And in any, in any situation I think in any turning point in your career, if you have a bad job, I, if you get passed over for a promotion if there is something bad that happens, I do believe that it is possible in hindsight to look back at that and think, thank goodness! Because you know my whole thing at PepTalkHer is, you know, rejection is just redirection, right? It's not the end of the world. It's just redirecting you to a another door or another path. And this was that moment in my career. It really changed my career forever. It's why I'm living in New York. You know, it's why I've met some of the most amazing people. It's why I live this awesome life that I've obsessed with. And I think I'm so lucky and privileged everyday. And so I, in hindsight I'm grateful. But it was, it was kind of shitty at the time.
Sally:
Ah, yeah, it's always the way I love that rejection is redirection and that redirection in your life has now resulted in you being able to help so many other women with similar stories and lots of other stories at work. So give us a bit of a rundown on what the main, what is PepTalkHer and what are the main challenges that women in the community are coming to you with?
Meggie:
Yeah. So my whole mission is closing the pay gap. Like that's, I would love to be outta work, Sally, that's the goal. I'd quite like to be unemployed. The data right now, reckons that we're looking at 100 to 200 years before we get to pay parity. So it's a long road ahead.
Sally:
What?
Meggie:
I know it's crazy, hey. It's, but you know, we're fighting against generations of systemic discrimination and bias. And so progress is happening albeit slowly and I'm buoyed by that. And I'm excited by the small gains we are making. So yeah, our mission is to close that. And so we know that to get rid of the pay gap, we need government policy change. We need business to change as well, right? So we really work at the grassroots level. So we have 60,000 women in professional women in our community and we support them to understand the value that they bring to business, negotiate and advocate for themselves to be paid fairly, and to be promoted. Right, and the results that we get are kind of bananas in a good way. So like people will get 5,000 bucks, $10,000 raises no problem. 30 K, 50 K. We had a student a couple of months ago get $103,000 pay raise, which is like--
Sally:
Woohoo! Wow!
Meggie:
Yeah. Like, it's not nothing. Right. Like, and this is big money and that's for her.
Sally:
Yeah. But is that like, how good is that or how bad were things to begin with?
Meggie:
And so it's interesting. And I think it's a bit of Column A, and a bit of Column B, right? So sometimes it is how bad of things to begin with in her instance. It was a bit of that for sure. I reckon maybe 30 or 40 K was part of that. But also the other thing was that after going through our career level up program, she realized the leverage she had within the business. And actually the unique qualities that made her so special that she just didn't realize they would never gonna let her leave. I could see that from the outside, she didn't get it. Cause she was like, "Oh, I'm not that good." And I was like, oh my gosh, I'm sitting here objectively. Like there were so many reasons that I just knew they'd never let her go. And so of course, when she had the conversation and put the data forward, they were scrambling to be like, of course, like whatever you want. Yes, yes. You know, like we'll promote, you, we'll put you in this different department, all that kind of stuff. So, sometimes it is that there's a pay gap in the first instance for sure. And sometimes it's that, you know, support that we give people to help them see a pathway for an even better role and for advocating in a way that positions them where the expectation is that the salaries will be significantly higher going forward.
Sally:
So good. So it's this macro problem. Systemic that really does go all the way down to the individual. And as you know, that's where I work a lot with as well. It's the individual situation and the individual voice that you are bringing into those conversations to get what you deserve.
Meggie:
Totally.
Sally:
So if someone's listening to this going, "Okay. Yes, yes. I'm feeling, I'm feeling pumped, but what do I do? Where do I start? Who do I talk to? How do I do this?"
Meggie:
And that's the thing, right? Like probably everyone listening, you might have read a book or you've listened to podcasts about this stuff. Or you, you know, you've read a couple of articles, it's just a bit of a behemoth. Right? Cause there's a lot going on, right? Like if you're sitting here and you're like, "I haven't had a pay raise in three years, where do I start?" It's really hard to know where to start. Right. And I think that's a big part of what PepTalkHer is, is it's a roadmap to help you get where you want to go. So one of the things that we launched a couple of years ago, Sally, to help people find their voice in a negotiation was the PepTalkerApp. And we launched that at the Vogue codes event actually. And really it's like a brag book, you know, it's sort like a Fitbit for your career.
Meggie:
That's kind of what it is. So it'll be like, Sally, it'll send you a push notification. It'll be like, "Sally, what's up? What are you really proud of?" And you'll be like, I recorded three podcasts. I did two keynote speeches with some amazing ASX 200 companies. And I ran three coaching sessions. So we, then, Tick, tick, tick! There you go. So we record that for you right in the app. So it's all in one place. So then, if you go to renegotiate your rates in six months, or if you go to get a pay raise from a boss who doesn't exist with you, but for other people who have a boss, instead of walking in blind being like, "Oh shoot, I've got a negotiation tomorrow. What do I say?" You kind of got a bit of a dossier achievements that you can pull from and you can be like, "Oh my goodness, what do I say?
Meggie:
Oh, that's right. Oh yeah. That's what happened in July. Oh my gosh. I forgot. I did that in January." Cause like who can remember all of that stuff if you didn't write it down and if your boss doesn't and know about it, did it even happen? You know, and you've gotta be doing your own PR really? Because if you are not doing your own PR, who is, you know, not too many of us can afford our own publicists. So you've gotta be your own publicist within the business. And that doesn't sit well with a lot of us, right? Especially the Aussie's listing cause of tall puppy syndrome. It's like, don't be a wanker. Like don't get too big for your boots. So you've gotta do it in a way that's genuine to you and it feels good, but you've gotta do it nonetheless, because otherwise you're gonna be sitting there. Like some of the people who come to me and they haven't had raises for six or seven years. And you know, inflation, it's a killer. It really sucks!
Sally:
And there's that belief that your work will speak for itself, that belief "My work will speak for itself." I'm calling BS on that.
Meggie:
Totally.
Sally:
You speak for yourself. Your work does not speak for yourself. You speak for yourself and it doesn't matter how well you walk the walk, if you can't talk the talk as well, then it goes unnoticed. So it sounds like the practical tip that you're giving is to create your own file of what you're achieving.
Meggie:
Yeah. And I can give you, I'll share a little behind the scenes journo secret. I spent 15 years as a journalist in Australia and overseas at the BBC. And a very prominent Australian male journalist who shall remain nameless. He's a good friend. He has a Google sheet. Every single day, he fills in the Google sheet. He's very OCD and meticulous every single day he fills in the Google sheet, what the story was, what the title was, whether it was exclusive and whether it led the bulletin, every single day. So like what you know, like, so can you imagine him at pay raise time? I've had 72 exclusives. I got, you know, three lead stories a week for the past 30 weeks. Like that's why I deserve like... actually, I'm trying to think, I forget how much money he's on. He's on like, you know, it's several hundred thousand dollars.
Meggie:
Put it that way. He's on a good wicket, but that's, you know, he's got data to back that up. And as a news director, it's kind of hard to argue with that. You're like, oh, okay. So compare that conversation to someone who walks in and says, "I'm working really hard and you know, I'd like a raise." "Okay. Why?" "Well, I work really." "That's great. But like how and what and show me", you know, and I think a lot of us, and honestly I see this anecdotally more with women. We think if I work harder, if I work longer, they'll see it. And they'll notice. You've gotta work smarter. Like you have to be a hard worker and good at your job. Don't get me wrong. But there comes a point an inflection point in your career where I'm assuming, Sally, most of your listeners are aware, you know, it's not working. It's not getting them where they wanna go. And they're doing these ridiculous hours and they're supporting all of the people who are getting the lead stories. And yet they're not getting the recognition. Does your boss know that you did that research? Does your boss know that was your source? Does your boss realize that you've been doing 16-hour days all week? 'Cause if they don't know, like you kind of, you've gotta communicate that. I'm not saying you should complain. You gotta communicate it. Yeah.
Sally:
Oh you are so right. And that was what I was going to add. I love this so much. It's not just about being able to show the evidence, but being able to put your voice to it and communicate those details. And I think about some journos that I've been working with and often it's a scramble of, "Oh, well I haven't even got up to date show reel." "Oh I'm running into somebody and my show!", "Reel's not up to date." So a tip that I give is that at all times you want to have your one minute of wonder, I call it your one minute of wonder, what's your one minute sizzle reel with your best stuff. Because as you know, when you're a journal, you're doing that many stories that by Friday you've forgotten what you've done on Monday, half the time. And so, I love that Google sheet idea that is genius.
Sally:
And if you can do the same thing with your stories as far as, okay, that was a killer piece to camera. That was a really, really great, great yarn there. I'm gonna put that into my show reel. So at any time you never know when you're somewhere where you might run into a contact, you can say, "Yeah, let me send you some of my stuff" and you're not scrounging around. You've got that one minute. Ready to go.
Meggie:
Totally.
Sally:
Yeah. One more thing I'd add there as well is it's knowing, and this goes for whether a journalist or in any workplace is knowing who the decision-makers are. Cause so often they'll be like, "Oh, well, you know, my producer thinks I'm going well. And the camos really love me" or "My colleagues think I'm great." But as you say, if it's not the decision-makers, the people who are deciding your salary who see any of that, then it doesn't really matter.
Meggie:
It doesn't really matter. It doesn't matter. And, I'm not saying that this is fair. I'm not saying that this is reasonable. And I'm not saying that this is equitable by any stretch. Right? And the saddest thing is a lot of my dearest friends are journalists and some of the hardest workers I categorically know are the lowest paid. And that's not fair. Right. But they also don't ask for anymore. And they also, frankly, honestly, Sally, I don't think they truly think they deserve anymore. I know they deserve more. If I told you who they were, you know, they deserve more the news directors sure as hell know they deserve more, but they're not gonna be offering it up on a plate because why would they? Because don't forget a lot of management, a lot of news directors get bonus if they come in under budget on their salary.
Meggie:
So let's pretend I'm a news director. Let's pretend I've got a million bucks for salaries. I've got a million bucks to spread around. A lot of the times, this is not the case everywhere. But in some instances, if I only spend $900,000, I get a bonus to my personal bank account of the hundred grand that I've saved the company. And so I tell you this because sometimes management is incentivized financially to pay you less. And so, look, on the one hand, you kind of can't blame them. They've got families to feed, too. Fair enough. But on the other hand, you've gotta understand what games are going on in the background. Because if you understand, you can meet them where they're at and you can play by their rules. Right. So there's lots of things that you could do as well. Like, you know, we've all heard that, you know, we've asked for a raise and we've been told, "Oh, there's no more budget. Sorry." Okay. Okay. Kind of sucks. But, okay. So then what are you gonna ask for? Right. Like that is not the end of the conversation. I've done this. I was at a previous network where I got eight weeks annual leave paid every year. The standard was six. I was like, "Well, if you're not gonna bump me up in salary, I'd like two weeks off the books." And they're like, "Yeah, that's totally fine. Don't tell anyone. No worries." So it's doable. And you can say, "Well, if I'm not getting a raise, I want one overseas trip a year." Or, "If I'm not getting a raise fine, can I go on to the documentary unit for a month? That would really mean a lot to me." Like, what else can you be negotiating? Will they cover the cost of you doing a series of sessions with Sally, with a voice coach?
Meggie:
Right? You know, back when I was a journalist, I did a lot of voice coaching and often it was paid for by the company. But you've gotta find your voice to ask the question. You gotta do the mental gymnastics to think, what can I get if this conversation doesn't go the way I want it to monetarily? What else do I value that actually the boss might be okay with? The boss wants your voice to get better. He wants your, he or she, wants your pieces to camera to get better. So potentially they're incentivized to cover the cost of a coach to support you to do that, you know, but you've gotta put yourself into their shoes as well.
Sally:
Oh, Meggie. I really, really, really wish that I had you many years ago because when I asked for a pay rise, when I was at Channel seven, it did not go well.
Meggie:
Oh, tell me more! So juicy, Sally.
Sally:
Oh, look. The way that I remember it is, I was quite a new bureau. And while I was there, we turned the ratings around. So we had been winning for however long. And we started winning the ratings. And of course the boss is happy. Happy days. "I dunno what you're doing, but keep, keep doing it!" That was some of the words from somebody. "Dunno what you're doing, but keep doing it!" And so when we had the visit from the news director, I was thinking, "Okay, great. Like, love this. I've got a compliment!" And when you get a compliment as a journalist, usually you're only hear when things are going wrong. Right. So when you actually got feedback, that's nice. I was like, oh, it's good. But I just wasn't planned. I wasn't prepared. And I sort of went in there expecting that.
Sally:
Of course he was gonna say yes cause of the feedback I'd been given. I didn't have an exact number. I didn't have more evidence than just, is there anything else? And it was honestly a laugh in my face going, oh, don't think so. Like you're going pretty well. And I just remember that was the first and only time at work that I cried. I think it was the sort of laughing in my face, "Who do you think you are to even ask?" That I just felt so deflated because as every journalist knows, you put your heart and soul into that every single day you are working well beyond your contract. You know, contracts say, you start at 9:00 AM and you finish at 5:00 PM, but your conference calls at 9:00 AM.
Meggie:
Here's the thing. I think when you work in an industry like media or perhaps you work for very well-known tech startups, or you work for very well known, not for profits where there's a level of kudos to working for certain brands. When you're in, when you're working for an industry or a company where there's more demand of people that wanna work there than jobs, we see that there are more instances of people who are frankly taken advantage of. Right? And when you're young, this happens to me a lot. When I was a junior reporter, too. You don't know, you don't know what you don't know. So you play by the rules. You put up with the slaps on the, cause you don't know that it's wrong. And you don't understand that there are procedures in place to support you. But of course you and I, and the listeners all know that even though there's systems in place, there's this thing called office politics, right?
Meggie:
So if you make a complaint, if you talk to HR, potentially that's gonna ostracize you. Even though it's technically correct and okay, you've gotta figure out as early as you can in your career, how to dance around that. It's not easy and they don't teach you that. And you know, you need to use your emotional intelligence and be quite strategic, frankly, about what's going on. And to your earlier point, Sally, you've gotta appreciate who's the decision-maker. So if you have a junior producer who you work with everyday, that's great. They're not deciding who gets the next bureau job. They're not deciding who gets to have opportunities to read the news or to cover investigations. That is not in their wheelhouse. So you need to be developing relationships with the assistant to the news director, because guess what? That's who gateway's access to them.
Meggie:
You need to find a reason and find regular opportunities to connect with decision-makers, even outside of potentially the news department. You know, if there's opportunities for mixes, if there are, you know, I don't know, inter-company events like you need to go along and you need to be building those relationships. Because those relationships will grow with you in your career. And those are the people that ultimately in two years, 20 years from now will help support you and lift you up into different opportunities. So I think like realizing that early on in your career is so valuable. And also the thing is like when it comes to things like news, reading jobs or bureaus, things that are very scarce a lot of people will do whatever it takes to get those jobs right. Or will accept conditions that maybe aren't ideal. And the challenge with that is when someone accepts that condition, that sets an expectation for everyone else coming after them.
Sally:
So one of my mentors actually said to me she's a professor at Stanford and she said, me "Meggie, when I negotiate, it's not about me. It's not about me. And as women, actually, we are better collective negotiators." So this is a hack to trick your brain as well. She doesn't negotiate for herself. She negotiates for herself, her husband, her kids, her grandkids, her horses, and the next generation of female academics. Because she said, "I know if I don't fight now, it's harder for the next academic who comes after me." So she says, "I see it as my responsibility to ask the question, right? And to try and ask and ask and ask." And so she's kind of in her mind, she's kinda like breaking through the glass ceiling a little bit by little bit because she knows it's gonna make it easier for the next person.
Meggie:
And she's quite right. And so I think all of us do have a level of responsibility. Be very careful what conditions you accept or you suggest like I know a correspondent as well, who lives and works overseas. Like they weren't even asked, but they offered to take a lower rental stipend. And I was at a dinner party recently when they shared this story and everyone at the table was like, "What did you do that for you idiot! You just screwed up the next generation of correspondents who come after you! Because now the expectation is lower." And he was like, "Well, yeah, but I really wanted the job." And we're like, "Yeah, but like don't offer. They didn't ask you to do that. Like you were gonna get the job anyway." So don't negotiate with yourself. Just it's one of those things you gotta be really careful, but it happens a lot. And I think it's, we don't talk about it enough, you know?
Sally:
Oh, absolutely. I wasn't gonna bring up COVID but I think it's very relevant here because it is harder being in a newsroom or any workplace to just have a mixer or walk-up to the news director. You're a bit more, I guess, isolated in a way. So do you have any techniques that people can use in this environment where it's not just the, "Hey hello? Can I come in?"
Meggie:
Yeah. And it's and you know, this is a great question. So it's kind of like building relationships remotely, right? So the reality of the world is like relationships makes the world go round. I would never have met Sally if our mutual friend Simone hadn't connected us. Right. Like, and I trust Sally because I trust Simone. And so like, Simone trusts me. So we've, you know, straightaway forms an instant connection and a deeper bond than if I met you on the side of the street. Right? Because we have that shared history. So it is your job. COVID sucks. Remote work sucks, right? Like it's not ideal from a relationship, networking, mentoring, sponsorship perspective. We can all agree on that. It is what it is. It saves our commute time, but it's harder in other ways. So, you can either complain about it and, "Oh, it sucks. I can't build relationships. This is shit", or you can do something about it. So here's what you can do. Like if you've got a boss, maybe they've got some kids, maybe, you know, one of their kids is starting grade one, maybe, you know, one of their kids just graduated from their first degree. So why don't you send them a Slack Message or an e-mail and say, "Hey, I heard John graduated. You must be so proud! Like, that's awesome." Or like, "How was the first day of grade one?" Or "Did you have orientation day yet? My nephew just had his so cute hope it went well." So we're trying to find personal connections. Maybe you know that their partner's been sick and maybe you just touch base and say, "Hey, I'm just checking in. How's your partner doing? It must be a hard week for you right now" Like I have a lot of anniversaries saved in my phone, Sally. So if someone I know, loses a family member, I will make a note of that in my calendar to recur every year so that I can reach out to them on what must be one of the worst days of the year for them, right? And I actually don't do that for a networking reason. I do that because I wanna try and be a good human, but it's kind of the same thing. If you know, there's an important date or time in a boss or a leader's role, maybe they're a massive Rabbitohs supporter. So maybe you wanna send them a little note. Maybe their house got flooded. I don't know whatever it is. You're trying to find connection. Maybe, you know, they go to Italy every year with their partner.
Meggie:
COVID means they can't. You found a great Italian down from you. Maybe you just wanna say, "Hey you might like to check this place out. It's my favorite. So cheap and cheer or by wine. Perfect. You'll love it. Whatever. Like you just gotta find a reason, right? You don't wanna be a pain in the ass, so don't do it everyday. That's annoying. Don't be that person! But find a reason. And, so maybe if you're using ENPS, you might top line. If you're using Slack workplace, there's different, you know, you choose the best comms channel. You might wanna do email, text. I don't know. Depends, but you wanna find those points of connection. The other thing that I recommend is the FYI only email. So this is a technique that you can use probably in newsrooms. I would suggest maybe once a month is probably enough.
Meggie:
Cause everyone's so hectic. Sometimes, I suggest every two weeks. I know some people that do it every week. Basically, Sally, this is when you would send an email that's like, let's pretend my news director's name is Shauna. I'd be like, "Hey, Shauna, FYI, hope that this month I have three exclusives. I got the chief justice to talk to us and I mentored the intern. And I've been nominated for a Walkley. I know that you've got the anniversary coming up this weekend. I hope it goes really well. I'll see you on Monday!" Whatever, just like a generic email that's like a bit of connection, but also, boom, boom. If you're a producer, you might be like, "As discussed, I fired Peter. It was all done in conjunction with HR that issue's been taken care of. We've reached out to more universities to ensure that the next round of graduates will be more diverse. And we were up on Channel 7's ratings last week. So long may that trend continue. Let's chat on Tuesday."
Meggie:
So it's just a way of kind of collating all the successes that you've had in a sort of chilled, but relatable way in a super short email, don't keep it long. Just dot points is good. Because here's the other thing that does Sally is like, if you come to December and maybe you've got a performance review, and if, if you ask for a raise or promotion, they're like, "No, look, to be honest, you know, I'm just kind of disappointed in your performance this year." You can then say that "Listen, tell me more about that. You know, I had no idea. I've been sending through updates every month and I'm really proud of the work I've done. I'd love to understand what I could have done better." So you're putting it back onto them to give you the feedback that you need. So that next year you can say, "Well, hang on, you told me to do this. I've gone ahead and done that." Where's the disconnect, right? So you're setting yourself up for success.
Sally:
Oh, so many fantastic practical tips there. And I know that there are people who feel a little bit uncomfortable about bringing personal things to the workplace, but it makes such a difference, you know, and you don't need to be going to work outlining the intricacies of what your Saturday night involved to be able to make that connection. So if you want to learn a non-work related thing and think even now, what do you know about everyone you work with? What's one non-work related thing you know about them? And you've gotta look at yourself as well and say, are you sharing those things for others? Because if you are keeping a really, really tight lead on anything about your life, that's work-related, you are making yourself very difficult to form a relationship with. So I think it's a great tip and it goes both ways.
Meggie:
And to your point, exactly, you don't have to booze with your colleagues, you know, and I think, you know, for anyone who's listening, who's an introvert as well. I think often, it can feel like you've gotta be an extrovert or you've gotta be kind of a bit of a boozehound to succeed in the media industry. Right? And the reason, a lot of people that do socialize a lot with colleagues and bosses do quite well, is because of that relationship. People wanna do business with people that they like. People wanna work with people that they like. So if they know that they like someone, it's much easier for them to hire them, right? They go, "Oh, well she's actually really good, but I don't really know her that well. So I don't know if I can trust her." Some of this stuff's gonna be a bit, you know, commercially sensitive, I don't know.
Meggie:
Right? So there's, it's a fine line. And you wanna share something of yourself so that you can be vulnerable, authentic in the workplace. But you are within your rights. You don't have to tell anyone if you are dating, you don't have to tell anyone that you belly dance on the weekend. That's totally fine. There's no need, you don't have to share everything, but maybe you wanna say, "Hey, if you listen to this podcast, it's amazing. Like, I'm such a fan!", Right? Or find a connection in another way. Maybe you're from Queensland, shout out to Queens. And so is your boss. So maybe that's what you talk about. Those elections that are coming up, cause maybe you're based in Melbourne or London or wherever the case may be. Right? You're trying to find shared connection. Human connection is so important, right? And it's, it's really gonna set you, set you up for success, but you can be an introvert and you can still have those successful relationships. You might just connect in a different way with people and that's totally fine as well.
Sally:
Oh, if you are listening to this and you've got your pen and your paper out and you're madly writing down all of these amazing tips that Meggie is giving, then you would benefit a lot from a new challenge that's coming up called the Know Your Worth challenge.
Meggie:
Yeah. So it's so interesting. So I get emails every single week. I had an email actually today from someone who's in the community. She's been through the Know Your Worth challenge before. She sent it to her mom. This woman is in her late thirties. So her mom must be in her fifties, sixties, maybe seventies, I don't know. And she sent me an email two days ago and say, "Hey, I just wanted you to know. Mom just negotiated a four-day week! How good's that down from five days, same pay. So shoutouts to the super mom who is a baller negotiator!", But yeah, really, there's certain questions and challenges that all of us face in the workplace again and again and again, regardless of industry, stage in your career. And so what we've done is developed a five challenge.
Meggie:
It's five minutes a day, cause who has longer than that. To really help you get a pay raise and a promotion. And frankly, to have a deep sense of self and to understand, yes, you are worth it. Here's why, and this is why you should 100% have the confidence to ask the question. And one of the things that we focus on is how do you get at comfortable asking uncomfortable questions? And for a lot of us talking about money is aux and uncomfortable. And so we talk through a framework to help you help you tackle that. And one of our staff is a behavioral psychologist. And so everything that we teach is is rooted in the psychology and the science behind why as humans, we behave the way that we do. So yeah. Check out peptalkher.com/Sally, and it's totally free. So you can sign up the emails. And then I do a live coaching call everyday for five minutes over the five days to help support you. So I'll take your questions live. I can coach you through scenarios you're going through. And plus you'll just kind of connect with the community similar to the community. You've created Sally. Like, like-minded people who are aspirational, they're going places. They just need a pep talk along the way. Right? Like we all do. And so that's, that's what we strive to do at PepTalkHer.
Sally:
Oh, I'm definitely signing up. Five minutes a day. Yeah, love it. And what's so important with this is once you know what to say, and this is where I'm very passionate, is once you know what to say, it's so much of it's in that delivery. Can you say it like, you truly believe it with the tone of voice and the inflections and the emphasis and that like drop-the-mic-that's-right-bitches kind of energy. Totally. And it is difficult as well to strike that right balance. We've gotta use our emotional intelligence as well. And I know that a lot of women, we try to walk that fine line between not being too much of a pushover, but not being too aggressive. Right. It's difficult. It's so difficult.
Meggie:
And it's difficult for good reason because we are penalized. You know, there is, is unconscious bias and discrimination that impacts women. And as I said, it's much worse for women of color. And that is real. That penalty is real. And one of the biggest things that I less so today, but particularly when I was a journalist, I struggled with the likability complex of like, I want even when I decided to take that company to court over the pay and equality, I wanted them to like me. I didn't want to fight with them. I didn't wanna leave the company. I wanted them to like me. So I tried to be likeable and friendly and like, let's all work this out, but you know, they didn't take me seriously. Probably because of my gender, probably because of my age. And frankly, Sally, probably because of the way that I communicated back then. I didn't know what I didn't know.
Meggie:
And with hindsight I would've handled it very, very differently. Right. So I think, yeah, the work that you do is so powerful because there's a time and a place to use your mic-drop voice and there's a time and a place to speak very slowly and quite quietly so that people really lean in and think, "Oh, shit, Meggie's serious." Right. So having that ability to pivot in your language, not just as a reporter or an on-air journalist, but also during performance reviews or frankly, you know, when you are having Zoom conversations with people as well. Having that empathy in your voice can help communicate a deeper connection with people as well.
Sally:
Absolutely. And that goes for anybody in any profession as well. Same thing. Amazing. Meggie, is there any final bits of goals and advice you'd like to drop?
Meggie:
No. Look, I just think, you know, one of the things someone said to me once Sally is people pay the price that you put on yourself. So no discounting, thanks. For many of your audience. We have an audience of absolute legends here who should be compensated fairly. And trust me, there are places that will value you and that will pay you fairly. It may not be where you are right now. And that's okay. It's sometimes hard, but in the long run, in my experience, it works out for the best. So don't forget that people will pay the price that you put on yourself. So I want all of you putting a higher price and then add tax, so that you are being paid what you're worth, because you truly, I believe that you're worth it. Your friends and your family and your, those colleagues know that you are worth it.
Meggie:
If your boss doesn't see that that's on them. Right. And that's not a reflection on you. So I would just love to stay in touch, let us know like Sally and I are both on Instagram. Let us know, like what you've learned from today. And tell us your story. I would love to hear from you in my DMs. And I hope to see a bunch of you in the challenge as well. It's coming up. It's gonna be rad. We gonna get pay raises last time Sally people got like, I think like there was a heap of 5,000 and $10,000 raises. We had one 30 K raise. Just from the five days. We have another course that helps you. If you're wanting to get the bigger bumps, the 50 to a hundred K bumps. But I'm excited for that. So it's peptalkher.com/Sally. I can't wait!
Sally:
Oh, amazing! Meggie, Thank you so much for joining the podcast.
Meggie:
It's a pleasure. Thanks everyone!
Sally:
Oh my gosh. Ever since I met Meggie as mentioned, it was through Simone Heng, who actually features as a guest on Episode 41 of That Voice Podcast. Ever since I met Meggie, she has just been the most beautiful, supportive human and just the kind of hype girl you really want on your sidelines. So please DM us on Insta. Let us know how you found the episode. I'm @SallyProsserVoice and Meggie is @PepTalkHer. And if you're listening to this before Feb 14th, then head to the link in the show notes to join the five-day Know Your Worth challenge. It'll be well worth doing the Know Your Worth challenge. It's peptalker.com/Sally.