74. Changing the stuttering story
If you think a stutter is a 'problem' to 'overcome' or 'get rid of', this is the episode for you. Actor and Stuttering Awareness Advocate Marc Winski explains how shifting the language and perception around stuttering has changed his life. Marc shares enlightening advice for people with (and without) a stutter and challenges everyone to overcome their fears and go after what they want.
Transcript
Sally:
Hello, hello! Welcome to Episode 74 of That Voice Podcast. And this one came about because of another episode. You might remember Episode 48, ‘How I Stopped Stuttering’ with the amazing Andrew Frodsham. It's one of my favorite episodes and full of really practical, interesting strategies to speak with less stuttering. So to promote that episode, I made a TikTok, which I'll play for you in this upcoming episode. And that drew the attention of Marc Winski, who is the CEO of Stutter Awareness on TikTok which I absolutely love! Now, Marc didn't love my TikTok. The language I was using and the tone I was using missed the mark. And so I thought, what better way to educate myself and perhaps you than to get Marc on the podcast? Our chat is honest, it's profound. At one stage, I lose the role of host and Marc actually interviews me. It's a bit longer than my normal episodes, but I just could not cut this one down anymore. So let's dive in.
Sally:
Marc Winski welcome to that voice podcast.
Marc:
Thank you. Thank you for having me. What we've been planning this for, for what? Like a month or two already.
Sally:
We certainly have. So Marc to start off. Would you like to tell us a little bit about yourself?
Marc:
Yeah. Uh, well, my name is Marc Winski and because we are on audio and just in general, I like to tell people, especially in the age of internet, that if you do hear some broken up speech, your internet and podcast is totally okay. I am a person that stutters, and that's a part of me. It's quite important to what's called health advertise just to let people know in order to really know that the other person is not thinking, "Oh my God, is there something wrong? Is he uncomfortable?" And also just do it for myself to just have, have that confidence, the confidence that it's a part of me. And that's just how I speak sometimes.
Sally:
Yeah. I love that so much. So a little bit of background, the way this came about was on TikTok. I met somebody called Andrew and it's one of my favorite podcast episodes. So please go back and listen to that podcast episode. Andrew tells the story about how he had a stutter growing up and he found some really interesting techniques in order to work through it. Now, from that, I made a TikTok, I guess, kind of advertising the episode slash talking to people with a stutter. And as you pointed out, Marc, there was some issues with some of the language that I was using. I'll give it a play.
Sally:
"If you stutter or stammer, I want to talk to you. If you don't then keep scrolling Okay. It's just us now. First of all, you're amazing. And I know you can get through this and I have something for you. A guy called Andrew reached out to me here on TikToK to tell me how he overcame his terrible stutter. Like it was so bad. He almost died of an asthma attack. He couldn't speak to the bus driver. He couldn't even order a meat pie, but he got through it and chats to me beautifully on my podcast about what he did. So go to the link in the comments of this video, take a listen to the podcast. It's only 23 minutes and Andrew even generously offers to help you personally, if you reach out and please do, because if you can speak with confidence and overcome your stutter, it will change your life. And I know you can do it.
Sally:
So even listening to that back, I'm like, Oh yeah, I do have a bit of a condescending tone, but take me through what is the problem with some of the language I was using there.
Marc:
First of all, thank you so much for, for just being able to have me on your podcast as well, and to be able to learn and grow. That's so important. I think just when people started tagging me in this video at first and sending me this video, the things I heard was a lot of negative speech, the terrible stutter. It was so bad. He couldn't even order a meat pie. He had to overcome it, or people have to overcome stuttering in order to change their lives and be successful. And those are the things that stood out to me. And I think the craziest thing is you aren't the only one who has these kinds of preconceived notions and preconceived kind of stereotypes of stuttering. This dates back decades through people and historians and especially television and where we are shown that stuttering is the joke. Stuttering is for the people who aren't confident and people who don't know what they're saying or, or what they're trying to say, or they're not as intellectual. And those kinds of tropes are put in front of us. Yeah.
Sally:
Yeah. And I think the language I was using is really the language that had been said to me, you know, so everything in that video about it being terrible and needing to overcome, it was all words that people who do have a stutter reach out to me with, they say, Sally, it's so bad. I want to overcome it. They use that negative language in the request. Do you know what I mean?
Marc:
It's so challenging when a lot of society is informing people who stutter, even by things that they don't know they're doing, for instance, growing up, I was told a lot, "Oh, Marc, you sound so good today. You sound so great. You're barely stuttering at all." or "You must be working so hard. Great job!" So I was hearing, oh, people are proud of me when I don't stutter. Oh, people are proud of me when they don't hear stuttering. So then ten-year-old Marc thought, "Oh, I know what I'll start doing. I'll start changing my words. I'll start not making phone calls as much. I'll start not ordering those meat pies that you spoke about." Not because I couldn't, cause I definitely could. Absolutely. But that fear, first of all, of judgment coming from somebody else and also the reassurance from other people saying, "Wow, you sound so great when you don't stutter!" And those were the messages that are still being projected to a lot, a lot of people out there, you know?
Sally:
So a bit of background, I guess, with the meat pie story, it was a bit hard to say in TikTok, but Andrew was saying that he really wanted to order a meat pie, but when he got there, he just couldn't get the sounds out. And so he just always ordered a cheese pie at the last minute and talk about how much he hated cheese pies by the end. It's quite a funny story. Cause he was like, I was like, I do not want another one of these bloody cheese pies, but whenever I get there, it just seems to be the only sound that can come out.
Marc:
I get it. I get it. Cause, I didn't order, same kind of story. I didn't order a cheeseburger until I was 21 years old! And I loved cheeseburgers, but I would get either a hamburger, because for me, I thought it was easier to say at the time or I would order a hamburger with cheese, which I would end up getting it. But inside, it just reinforced that fear and shame every time it happened. And I think that's why I'm trying to spread that awareness of it's part of you a lot of the time. And with stuttering, the outward struggle that people see the, the eye blinks, the secondary behaviors, the prolongations, the repetitions are all caused by someone's reaction, their natural body reaction and learned behaviors from the initial syntax of the brain.
Sally:
Yeah. That's so interesting. Is it true for you that you don't stutter as much when you're just speaking to yourself? Or I dunno if you're like me and just talk to yourself around the house.
Marc:
Sometimes I've worked really hard to not differentiate those things. That's been, my practice is not to compare certain situations. And before I started that mindfulness practice of just allow even more of the stuttering to come out was where I started to really enjoy conversation so much more. Because although I would hide and people, a lot of people didn't know that I stuttered, the internal fear of speaking was so strong that I didn't enjoy conversation.
Sally:
Yeah. So how did you make that change? How did you make that mindset shift?
Marc:
Talking to a lot of people, talking to some really good speech programs. I got involved in a lot of the stuttering community and support groups and self-help work and just kind of finding this incredible community of other people that stutter that have like situations, and being like, "Oh, we have this in common, but we all come different backgrounds." We all come from different ways of life globally. We all come from different jobs, different schooling, different parents, and still have the same experiences with stuttering. And a story that comes to mind. A quick story, I was just out of college at the time and I was searching for anything to quote unquote, cure stuttering. I would try anything at the time. And I came to this place called the American Institute for Stuttering in New York city.
Marc:
That was an accent that didn't mean to come out. In New York city and day one, I was talking and a speech therapist there said, "Hey, Marc, you know that you don't have to change words around anymore." I was like, "What do you mean? He says, "Yeah, you can just stutter on those words that you want to say." And that's it. And then some light bulb went off. And from that day, I really didn't change words anymore. And it was through that work of unlearning everything I learned growing up that came an even greater sense of power and voice and sense of freedom. And being able to say the things I want to say, kind of how I want to say them in how I say that.
Sally:
Yeah. I love that. So in the community you were part of what was the language you were using or for us, what would I say for us, for me? What is the right language to be using? If it's, if a stutter isn't something that's a bad thing. If it's not something to be over, a problem to be overcome or something to get through, what is the way that we should talk about it?
Marc:
The message that I'm really trying to spread is to allow it. Just allow, just something really simple, give yourself permission. And that's not just with stuttering too, right? In any kind of vocal work, in any kind of giving talks, giving presentations in the office, giving a speech to 10 people, giving a speech to 2000 people, it's allowing yourself to go to that vulnerable place. I've been really reading a lot of Brene Brown's work about your smiling and nodding. Like yeah, it's being truly vulnerable. Like that's the work. And unlocking that work, this just is night and day and changing the language, is really important.
Sally:
Yeah. And you're really inspiring for so many people who do stutter, your TikToks are amazing. And even now in the podcast, what if somebody is listening and they have a stutter and they're thinking, "Oh my gosh, like Marc is talking on a podcast. There is no way that I could ever even do that!" What advice would you give to them?
Marc:
You can, and you can, and you might stutter. And that's okay. Or you might not stutter, and that's okay, too. It's all okay. I think as soon as we stop, especially as a society that has these preconceived notions of what perfection is. It's very toxic at times. It's not just speech, but also how we look, how we feel. We have to be positive all the time. We have to always do the hardest thing possible in order to grow. When sometimes you can do something, not always enjoy that specific time, but still go through it and do it and learn from there. I didn't go into this trying to be inspiring like I'm just living my life as Marc, who's an artist and an actor and a performer, and singer and tennis player, and cat owner, and exploring that. Is there anything in your life that maybe has held you back?
Sally:
Well definitely when I was younger, the idea of perfectionism wanting to get everything right. Not starting because it may not be perfect. And that's definitely something that I've recovered from. Thank goodness. I really believe done is better than perfect. And I really love what you were saying there, because I mentioned a scenario where somebody might feel like they can't be on a podcast because they have a stutter, but let's be honest. Everybody will have some sort of reason for why they can't do something. In my life, I've always been encouraged. I still can't ride a bike, which I think is a mindset problem. Cause I had this terrible experience in United camp where I came off the bike and now I'm convinced I can never go back on it, but it's really the same thing. Isn't it? It's making a past experience, hold us back from doing something!
Marc:
Joyful, right? The joy of feeling the wind in your face on that bike, and that experience that happened as a youngster has now taken control. And I think that's what a lot of people who stutter go through so much.
Sally:
So this is a really important part is what should people do when people are stuttering? So they're in a conversation and somebody stuttering. I know the wrong thing to do, which a lot of people I've even witnessed is jumping into, finish the sentence.
Marc:
For a good majority, just listen, just listen. There are a few situations that people get themselves in life where an extra five seconds is gonna dramatically change things. Very few, very few. And even so, we adapt. We're human beings. We all need that sense of connection. And I would say, don't fill in people's sentences for them, just listen. And if you are curious, this is one of the biggest things I've learned. And I love talking about this point is... I'm getting chills, but ask questions. If you are comfortable with that person that you're speaking with, ask them how they feel. Because a lot of people don't. A lot of people treat this as such a taboo topic. Oh it's, Oh, don't talk about this. Oh, don't explain that. Oh, don't do this. And just a quick thing about overcoming. It's not overcoming the physical stuttering. I think a lot of it is overcoming that fear.
Sally:
Yeah, absolutely. And it reminds me of when my dad died a few years ago. There was people who straight away asked you about it. Like, "Oh, I'm so sorry to hear the news." And then there was a lot of people who just didn't want to bring it up because they didn't want to make me upset. And I think it's one of those tricky areas. I guess if you haven't had the experience, you don't really know what to do. And I think people just say nothing because they're afraid of how it might make you feel. In a way this is the same kind of thing. Just ask, ask how the person is feeling. Lean into it. Don't just avoid cause you feel like it's, it's like a bad thing.
Marc:
Yeah. Like, "What can I do to help you?" I know many people who have gone through a similar experience that you went through, and I just stand there to serve. "How can I help?" If that's not asking questions, right. If that's having a conversation over coffee, great. I've got a list of questions to ask you, if that's okay.
Sally:
Oh my goodness, how the turns of tables! I used to be a journalist. And so I was always used to asking the questions, and then I was a company spokesperson so I was on the other side of it as well. So I'm pretty comfortable on both sides of the microphone. So hit me up!
Marc:
Great! I'm ready, you ready? Question one, what do you think causes stuttering?
Sally:
I don't know, from my understanding, there can be lots of initial things that cause it, and usually it's some, it can be some kind of trauma, but it can also be something that just happens for no apparent reason. I'd be interested to hear your take on this.
Marc:
Great. I love your first comment of, "I don't know." Cause a lot of people wouldn't say that. I love the honesty there. Yeah. Lots of people are just born with that. A lot of it is psychological and also due to genetics as well. But the most interesting thing is it all comes together with physical, with trauma, with psychological, with genetics as well and all kind of intertwined into one clump.
Sally:
Interesting. Do you know what caused it for you? Did you have it since you were as young as you can remember?
Marc:
I did. I did. Since I started speaking at a young age three, four years old and that's when it started. So, moving on question number two. What would you do if your child stuttered?
Sally:
Oh, I would probably take them to a speech pathologist hoping that they just have the support they need in order to not be held back in any way by it.
Marc:
Yeah. I love that answer. I love that answer. Unfortunately, a lot of speech pathologists that have Master's degrees in speech pathology don't even take a stuttering course. So they truly don't know. And that's one of the most challenging parts I feel.
Sally:
Yeah. That is really interesting because I have people saying, "Sally, can you help me with a stutter?" And as I mentioned, if it's just that normal stuttering, which everybody can get, when they get nervous, I can help. But if it is, I guess not just that social anxiety-related, then I always say, "Go and see a speech pathologist." Yeah. But as you say, that may not even help!
Marc:
I would suggest reaching out to a stuttering specialist. There's also some really great organizations to hook into that.
Sally:
Yeah. That would be great if we can get the contacts of some and I can put them in the show notes.
Marc:
Absolutely. Just two more quick things, two more quick things. What do you think a person who stutters should do to get more comfortable with speaking and maybe even change that to anybody? Like what can anybody do as a vocal coach yourself? What can people do to get more comfortable with speaking?
Sally:
Well, similar to what you're saying, Marc, it all starts with the mindset, believing that your voice matters, believing that it deserves to be heard and then just doing it. So often, it's the, we were talking about fear, but I like to replace that with "unfamiliarity". It's just unfamiliar. So you might be feeling, "Oh, I don't really want to get up on screen and give a live class." Well, if it's the first time that you've done that just the same way as the first time you do anything. It's got the, brain's going to say, "Oh, hang on, you got to stay safe here. Just be careful. Don't do it." But then once you do it, the next time, it's a bit more familiar and more familiar again. So I would say, just get out there and do it because the more that you hold back from it, the bigger the fear becomes.
Marc:
Yeah. That's so right. That's so right! And, and it's, it's not always going to be easy.
Sally:
For sure. One of my favorite quotes is "There's no comfort in the growth zone, and there's no growth in the comfort zone." So it's supposed to feel a bit uncomfortable.
Marc:
Yeah. You actually reminded me of one of my favorite quotes is, "If you think that you've been buried in a dark place, maybe you have been planted and given that opportunity to grow."
Sally:
I love that so much. What a fantastic, fantastic quote. And we're never going to please everybody, whether you stutter, whether you have a high pitched voice, a low pitched voice. I have a professional broadcast voice and teach this for a living and still have people saying they hate the sound of my voice.
Marc:
Yeah.
Sally:
And so we've really got to speak for ourselves. You know, I think it's so important just to have belief in our own voice belief in our own message.
Marc:
I love that. I love that so much. And what you say about not pleasing.
Sally:
Yes. Humans! We're very self-loathing. Why do we do this to ourselves?
Marc:
Right? Why do we do that? I don't know, we try not to, right?
Sally:
I know! I always talk about a lot of strategies for that. And one of them is looking in the mirror every morning, no matter what I look like or how I feel and saying today, I have an ally, not an enemy.
Marc:
I love that!
Sally:
I'm going to be friends with myself today.
Marc:
Oh, that's huge! Can I borrow that one?
Sally:
Of course! It really works, because I feel like our inner voice is like this. We can either carry around a best friend or an enemy. And you know, we are the only person we're stuck with from the start of our life, to the end. So we should try to be stuck with someone we like!
Marc:
The best. Right. I love that. I love that so much. Do you have any more questions for me?
Sally:
Do you have any more questions for me? Was that the end of the questions?
Marc:
Oh, I don't know. Let's see. Oh, do you know anybody else that stutters, other than Andrew?
Sally:
You know what, I don't. And I think that's another thing that doesn't put me in the best position to be answering all of these queries that I get about stuttering.
Marc:
Yeah.
Sally:
So again, that's why I'm so grateful that you've chatted with me today because it's definitely helped me so much. And I know it's going to help everyone listening.
Marc:
I hope so. And if people are listening, please reach out, please reach out. I'm on TikTok and Instagram. And I try to respond to everyone I can. My platform and talks really revolve around finding your own truth. Not someone else's perceived truth of what you should be. Not someone's perceived truth of how they should handle, but really what's deep. What is gonna allow you to be planted and help you grow.
Sally:
So beautifully said. Marc, thank you so much for joining That Voice Podcast!
Marc:
I thank you for having me, Sally.
Sally:
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