148. The healing power of pub choir
In this episode I chat to the amazing woman behind Pub Choir and the quarantine version Couch Choir - Astrid Jorgensen.
We cover -
Why she started Pub Choir
The incredible benefits of singing – like even helping prevent snoring.
And how this is a powerful vehicle to help people clear feelings of shame.
Penny the dog makes an appearance and you’ll also hear how Pub Choir has reached military events in North Korea!
TRANSCRIPT
Hello. Hello. Are you ready to sing? Yes. My speaking voice is better than my singing voice, however, that is not stopping me from singing. And yes, we do sing in this episode! I'm chatting with the amazing woman behind Pub choir and the quarantine version Couch Choir. So imagine a bunch of strangers singing a well-known song and bringing on major emotions. If you've never heard of Pub Choir or Couch Choir, you will want to after this episode. So the woman behind this amazing concept is Astrid Jorgenson. And I chat to Astrid about why she started Pub Choir, the incredible benefits of singing, like even helping to prevent snoring, and how this is a powerful vehicle to help people clear feelings of shame. Penny, the dog makes an appearance and you'll also hear how Pub Choir has reached military events in North Korea. Are you intrigued? Let's dive in.
Sally
Astrid Jorgenson, welcome to that voice podcast. It is so great to have you here. How are you?
Astrid:
Oh, I feel so excited and so nervous because I feel like I should put on a really lovely, like calm voice when I'm speaking with you, cuz you are the voice queen!
Sally:
Astrid, you are joking me! Right back at you. I did singing lessons for about four years, and my teacher would always give me those theatrical musical theater type pieces that were half speaking because I didn't really have a great sense of pitch!
Astrid:
I don't believe that for a second.
Sally:
All the science point to me being a great singer, and maybe I should take it back up again! Yet I really remember I, uh, was doing this song from, oh, what's the musical? It was, I'm just a Girl Who Can't Say No?
Astrid:
Oh, I'm actually, uh, I'm not a massive music theater head, but I'm sure I'd know if I heard it.
Sally:
That's so funny. Anyway, but it was like a, basically a speak song. So the idea of singing has always been, um, something that not just myself, but a lot of people feel self-conscious about, which is why what you've done with Pub Choir is just so amazing. Take us from the start. How did this idea come about?
Astrid:
I mean, on one, one level it's totally unremarkable because, um, pubs and choirs have just been around for, you know, probably thousands of years. And I mean, putting, people have sung in pubs for a long time. People have sung in choirs. But I guess putting them together was an idea that I had in 2017. Um, at that time I was a high school music teacher and I was deeply unhappy doing that. Um, and I had a lot of choirs on the go, and I guess I was just confused as to why no one would come to my choirs that I would consider maybe my peers. Um, choir in Australia has a very cultural connotation of like elderly people wearing like satin sashes and doing really old sort of music repertoire. Look, none of, there's nothing wrong with any of that, but again, I guess I was just confused as to why no one who I went to school with wanted to join a choir that I was taking, or you know, where were, where were my peers, where were my friends, why weren't they attracted to choir?
Astrid:
Honestly, I just added the word pub to choir. Um, but I did, I did actually, uh, look, I talked it down, but to, to be honest, in 2017, I did write a list of of reasons I could think of why my friends weren't joining choir because I think it's magical. Singing is so easy. Uh, uh, you know, it's, it's hard maybe to do really well. Um, but to begin singing, you just like open your mouth and start making noise and when you do it in a choir, you get like added security and anonymity and it's like really freeing and easy. And I was confused when my friends weren't joining. So I wrote the list in 2017 and it was stuff like, people don't wanna go to maybe a church hall on a weeknight when they're not maybe religious. Like maybe they don't feel comfortable with the venue choices that a lot of choirs rehearse in.
Astrid:
And then I think a lot of people might not have the time commitment to go every week to choir. They might not have an hour every week to dedicate to chipping away at this long-term project. Um, and, you know, there were a whole other raft of reasons that I came up with and Pub choir was kind of the solution to it. So, you know, nearly six years later it's, it's kind of amazing to see the growth. I certainly didn't start out with the expectation of where I am now with Pub Choir, but, um, I guess I'd sum all of that up by saying that it is just an attempt to allow people to reclaim singing back into their lives and feel less ashamed of it. Um, and, and to not be so embarrassed if you're not the best. That's okay.
Sally:
I love that. And I was in a vocal ensemble at an all-girls Catholic school, so I can definitely relate to being in the liturgical gown singing hymns.
Astrid:
Yeah, me too. Me too. And I liked it, but you know, it's not everyone's bag, it's not everyone's story and and I get that.
Sally:
Yeah, for sure. So why is it important for people to not be ashamed about singing?
Astrid:
I think the broader question is, why is it important to not be ashamed! Um, you know, just for existing.
Sally:
Love that. Yes.
Astrid:
I mean, I think, um, I think a lot of us carry this like expectation on ourselves that we need to be the best. But I mean, when you just play the numbers game, realistically, you're not the best at anything probably. Um, you know, and it's like there are, you know, billions of people in the world. I think it's really, the odds are not good for each of us to be the best at anything really. And that might sound kind of demotivating on a surface level, but actually it's kind of like setting yourself up for guaranteed failure and disappointment in life when you feel like you can only glean satisfaction if you are the best, you are not going to be the best.
Astrid:
We have to let go of this striving of something that is impossible. And so I think choir is a really easy, um, place to learn that lesson. That you can't actually be the best at choir. You can't, like, there is no way to win at that activity. Um, certainly if you are the loudest by far, you're not winning, you're not winning choir. Choir is about becoming part of the whole, and, and I think it's kind of like this, a fast track to learning the lesson of it is okay to participate and enjoy the experience and to not strive to be the best. And that is enough. That makes us feel good.
Sally:
And it's so much more than that as well, isn't it? Like I did a quick search on how singing is good for you
Astrid:
Mm-hmm.
Sally:
And oh, it would take me the whole episode to read it out. It has emotional and psychological benefits, social benefits, behavioral changes, physiological changes. It strengthens your immune system, improves your breathing. It helps you create a sense of inclusion. It boosts confidence that lowers cortisol. Like it's kind of like, give me your reason why people shouldn't be out there using their voice and singing in the collective.
Astrid:
Yeah, my dog dog's using her voice right now, cuz the melody.
Sally:
I love that. That's fine. Let's, let's keep her in.
Astrid:
That's Penny. She's a good singer. Um, well, look, I totally agree with you. Like, singing is more than entertainment. I think. Um, a lot of people have confused the idea of singing as something that others do and we watch, but actually every one of us was born with a free singing instrument in our bodies. Um, we didn't have to buy anything. Um, you know, if you can speak, you already have all of the mechanisms and tools that you need to sing, but somewhere along the way we've all got confused with the idea that singing is about perfection. But, um, as you say, there are so many benefits to singing that exist outside entertainment or, um, putting on a show for others. Um, you know, one is even like, it helps with snoring. Tell your partner that or what, you know, like there's so many real world applications for singing. What my favorite actually, um, is this study, I forget who it's by, but they discovered that when a group of singers, um, sing together, should I just wait for the moment to pass?
Sally:
Are you about to say that their heartbeat sync? Yes. Because I love that study. Yes, it's so good.
Astrid:
They're all the singers are exerting themselves physically in the same way over a prolonged period of time. And so as the performance goes on, their heartbeat synchronized, like this is cellular stuff, cellular connection with other human beings. And I think if you take away the like, pressure of performing for others and, Oh, I'm not the best singer, and oh, I hope no one thinks my voice is ugly. If you take all of that self-judgment away and just look at the actual benefits of making like a human connection with others, it's so much more, um, more important than just like a distraction for us. It's, it's, it can be more than a hobby and a cute thing to do drunk at karaoke, you know, it has real, real life benefits for us.
Sally:
For sure. And same with speaking in our voices, this incredible energetic channel to move emotions through us. I did notice that a lot of people refer to it as group therapy, come to Pub Choir, come to group therapy. Um, do any stories of people come to mind as to how Pub Choir has really helped them, um, heal trauma or overcome big obstacles in their lives?
Astrid:
Yeah, actually, yes. I mean, it's sort of like, uh, sometimes I feel embarrassed to say something like this, but it's a true thing that happened is that, um, sometimes people do write letters and, and notes and things like that. And when people come to the show Pub Choir, which is a live experience, so you buy a ticket and you come along and you sing with strangers and you learn from me, um, a certain song, people do send really beautiful notes, you know, like, Oh, it was the first time I, in 50 years that I've sung in front of anyone else, I've been ashamed my whole life. Um, someone told me when I was a a child that my voice was really ugly. And so I've truly carried that embarrassment with me for decades. But then during COVID actually, we transformed online and I kind of thought it would lose some of the humanity kind of feeling to it.
Astrid:
I thought it would lose some of that, I don't know, emotional weight. But actually what happened was people started to send even more intense, um, messages to me about how they still felt connected to other people, even though they couldn't hear them in the room. And a couple of people sent me messages. I mean, saying things as, as the magnitude of, um, singing in this session this week and concentrating and getting back in touch with my voice and thinking about being connected with others when I feel so alone has saved my life. I think that is broader than just like the Couch Choir event that I created. I think that just speaks to the power of how important it is for so many of us to feel like our voice matters and that our voice is acceptable. Um, and there are lots of instances in life when I'm sure all of us feel like our voice is not important, but, um, I think it's been really heartwarming to give people the opportunity to show up however they are with whatever crackly sounding voice they might have and miss all of the notes that they might miss, and then still feel like that they mattered. Um, yeah, it's been really amazing for me to watch. Yeah.
Sally:
Oh, Astrid, full body chills when you were telling me that story. Uh, I've got, uh, I'll put links in the show notes as well. If you haven't seen the Couch Choir, uh, songs, honestly, take a listen.
Sally:
I know this episode is good, so I'll make this quick. I have a brand new freebie for you, which so many people have been asking for. Do you ever wish you had someone in your ear telling you exactly what you need to hear before speaking? Here it is. Pep Talks in your Pocket. So in these short audio tracks, I'll help you calm your nerves, warm up your voice, and ditch the self-doubt. They are totally free. Just click the link in the show notes or head to my website, and next time you speak, you will have your secret weapon, the Pep Talks in your Pocket. Okay. Let's get back to the episode.
Sally:
And as a little bit of an aside, I did see something really hilarious this morning on your Twitter that one of your songs has been remixed to a North Korean military event.
Astrid:
Oh my God. It was not something I ever expected to see. I mean, you never know. You make stuff when you're an artist and then you put it out in the world and you never know what people will see in it or, um, what they will do with it. Um, but yeah, that was a bit of a surprise. Someone took the audio of Pub Choir and put it to yeah, North Korean dictatorship concert footage. But it is like, that sounds like it's not funny. Um, but actually it's like the most amazing editing thing I've ever seen. It's like.
Sally:
Yeah, it looks so real!
Astrid:
Yeah, people have literally been writing to me over the last few days being like, Have they recreated your song in North Korea? I'm like, no, it's not real. But it's, it's, um, it's quite a feat of video editing.
Sally:
It's I want to break free, which makes it even funnier.
Astrid:
Yes, it's quite ironic. Um, but yeah, the editing is incredible, but it's so realistic that people have been writing to me being like, are you on some kind of North Korean hit list? I'm like, the internet just did a weird thing. It's you know, it's fine.
Sally:
And Astrid, it's so funny, it speaks to the global reach of what you've created. You know, you've been on national television talk shows across the world, and it's really captured people's imagination. I was doing some research last week and I found that one of the top three regrets of people who die. So top three regrets of the dying. Number three was, I wish I'd had the courage to express myself. I wish I'd had the courage to express myself and not just be quiet, to keep the peace, but really used my voice. And that's really speaks to the heart of what both of us do, which is encouraging people to have that expression, use their voice. If you look across the footage of what you've created, you never see somebody looking sad. It's always just smiles and happy tears and people hugging and touching. It is just so many good vibes. So you can really see how it is, uh, such a healing thing to do. And now, oh my gosh, I didn't, I wasn't gonna do this, but I'm just gonna go with it. Can you teach me a little song, like a little line of a song? And so if somebody's like listening along, then they could also, so if you're listening to this, if you're in public transport, actually doesn't matter. Just go for it Anyway, let's see if Astrid can teach us a couple of lines and we'll sing back.
Astrid:
Oh my God!
Sally:
And I, I'm doing this to show you that this is very vulnerable for me because this is not gonna be pitch perfect. You may want to turn the volume down for the next bit. Just a couple of lines.
Astrid:
Oh, I wish I was sitting near my piano. Um, I, uh, well, I, I guess the, the human voice doesn't need any accompaniment all the time. Um huh. No one's ever asked me that before in an interview.
Sally:
It just came to me. Well, we could do the one that you did at, at TEDx, I remember it was, um, it was a We're all in this together. It was a Ben Lee song, I'm pretty sure.
Astrid:
Oh, right. Well, actually, I was just thinking to myself, I've just finished this, um, collection of 20 short pieces to, um, I had this incredible mentor when I went through uni who actually unlocked the possibilities of music for me. And I found that really inspiring, and motivating in my career because I thought that music, again, was something that some people could do and some people could not. And, and this mentor called James Castelli opened up for me the idea that singing and music is actually for everyone if they're given the right guidance. Doesn't mean that everyone needs to end up being like a world stage performer. It's more like everyone has the capability to make stuff. And that really opened my mind. And so he asked me recently to write 20 short songs to give to the world for free. Um, because he was sort of like, Let's leave a music legacy. It's not just about like, who can afford music lessons and who cannot, but would you mind writing this collection of songs to give to the world for free so that any child or you know, anyone, any choir in in Australia or in around the world can make some music of a nice quality? And so I tried my best and I just, um, my favorite from the collection, um, which would sound better with a piano, but has this really short little song that says, You will never have this day again.
Sally:
You will never have this day again.
Astrid:
Oh, look at you, you've got great pitch! It's, it's funny doing online stuff. We can't sing at the same time as each other because of the delay, which is really annoying to try and do music lessons online. But that's the first line. And then the second bit says. You will never have a say again, if it was good, be grateful! Can you sing that?
Sally:
Oh, you're going high for me.
Astrid:
So I think a lot of people get so scared of using a different part of their voice that exists outside of their speaking range, but actually all it is is just air passing through your vocal chords. So.
Sally:
That's right.
Astrid:
Rather than pulling back, put a little bit more air behind. It doesn't have to be loud. Just get it out of your body. And it says, if it was good, be grateful.
Sally:
If it was good, be grateful.
Astrid:
And then I have this little descending passage that says, If it was hard, just wait until, if it was hard, just wait until if it was hard,
Sally:
Just wait,
Astrid:
Wait. And then I finish it off again with, you'll never have this day again.
Sally:
You'll never have this day again.
Astrid:
Yeah. So this, the whole thing, I'll show you the whole thing. You don't have to sing it back because I've put you on the spot. It's got so many little lines, but it says, You'll never have this day again. No, you'll never have this day again. If it was good, be grateful, if it was hard, just wait until you'll never have this day again. And I guess it's just a little tiny song being like, You know, sometimes we have good, good days and bad days, but the thing that is consistent is that it's only exists in that moment. And then you'll never have to live that day again. So I, I mean, I, I kind of wrote it with, with school kids in mind where they feel like it's important to be cool and to, um, I don't know, be the, be the best. And like, um, you know, they get a little bit self self-conscious of their voices and stuff, but I kind of want to bring people back to the present of like, you are the only one with your voice. You are the only person in the world that sounds like you. This is the only moment that you'll ever have that is exactly like this. You know, um, try to be more present. And that's what Pub Choir is about. And that's what that song collection is about. And that's what I think singing can provide for us. The feeling that we exist in this moment and that our voices unique to us. Um, but yeah, sorry. I would've sat with my piano and played that for you if I needed.
Sally:
Oh, Astrid, that was so beautiful with just your voice. So beautiful. It's that power of now, isn't it?
Astrid:
Mm-hmm.
Sally:
We'll never have this moment. So focus on that moment. It is so beautiful. Also, with, um, I teach a lot about daily affirmations and mantras and that kind of thing. If we put it to a tune, we're more likely to remember it.
Astrid:
Oh, right. Well this tune, this tune will be available for free for anyone in the world soon, I think. Um, which I think is a really beautiful project. You know, it's not just about like the haves and the have nots great if you can afford a singing lesson, but what if you can't? Well then I've, you know, there's gonna be, and it's not just me, there's three other composers. It's gonna be a whole rich collection of music all written in Queensland, available for free for the world so that everyone can, can make stuff if they want to.
Sally:
Oh, I'm so glad that came up. And so if people are listening to this going, oh my gosh, Pub Choir, where have you been all my life? Although if you haven't heard of it, come on. Honestly. Where have you been? This has been everywhere! Um, how can people come along to one of your events?
Astrid:
So head to pubchoir.com.au. Um, we have a, I think there's only one show with tickets available at the moment. Look, they do sell out.
Sally:
There is, I'm on this, I'm on the site now and everything's sold out, sold out, sold out!
Astrid:
Yeah. I think there's one show with some tickets available in Sydney. But we honestly travel really consistently around Australia. We are even looking at international stuff in the UK and the US this year. If you head to the website, pubchoir.com au, you can sign up to the mailing list and we keep people updated when we've got a new show announced. And honestly, just buy a ticket. Like no one at the show will ever hear your personal performance. It's not about you, it's about all of us. And so you just buy a ticket and come along. You don't have to prepare anything. Um, you are welcome.
Sally:
Yes. And you are welcome to have a drink as well to calm the nerves.
Astrid:
That's part of the show. Yes. And I mean, I would say as well, I feel like, um, I'm starting to get better at this, but I think, um, you know, Pub Choir is, um, has got, has gone so much further than I ever imagined that there are other little people popping up everywhere with the, sometimes using the name Pub Choir and occasionally using my picture. So Pub Choir is actually the name of my show. So hopefully if you see a show called Pub Choir or if you head to our website, you know, it's the official one. And, um, and it should mean that you're getting a lesson from me cuz I love to, um, meet new people all around the world. And so if you head to pubchoir.com.au that will ensure that you're, you're at fear.
Sally:
That's the, that's the real one.
Astrid:
The OG!
Sally:
The real pub choir. I saw that on the frequently asked questions of your site that you are, that people are starting Pub Choir using your images and oh gosh.
Astrid:
Yeah! It's a term that I coined. It sounds really ubiquitous, which I love. Um, but yeah, no one had ever put those kind of two concepts together and called it a show like that before. So yeah, come to the OG Pub Choir. Would love to sing with you sometime.
Sally:
Yes. Well if you're not going to the original one, then we don't know what you're gonna get. So make sure you go to that site. I'll put the proper link in the show notes. Thank you. Oh, Astrid. Amazing. Was there anything else you wanted to add?
Astrid:
No, look, I guess I just wanna say, well yes, I guess, that, you know, Pub Choir is my project and I'm really proud of it. But what I hope actually is the outcome for people in their lived experience and in their actual day-to-day life is that, say you come along to a show and you have the realization that your voice is good enough to begin. And so I hope that people then go and find a choir in their own world, or they go and sing around the house more and are less embarrassed in front of their children. You know what, one woman said to me that she, she had never been brave enough to sing Happy Birthday to her own child. So, you know, like pub choir is one thing and yes, I want you to buy a ticket to my show come along, but also I want people to feel more free and less embarrassed about the way that their voice sounds. It's unique to you. And I think that that is already good enough to begin, you know, that's worth celebrating. So, um, find a way to feel okay about your voice cuz it's the only one like it we love it.
Sally:
Yeah. And healing your relationship with your voice heals things across your life. So if you can heal your, uh, feelings of shame or embarrassment by using your voice, then anything else in your life that you felt shame or embarrassment about will be lifted as well. Which is why there's such healing power in what you do. And what I do different ethos.
Astrid:
Yes absolutely!
Sally:
Yeah. Oh, so amazing. Well, Astrid, you wouldn't believe it. I came to your TEDTalk a few years ago and then every single time there has show has been on, it's either been a date clash or I have not been quick enough on the dial to get a ticket. I will get there. Definitely, I will get there. And if you are listening to this, these shows do sell out like lightning fast. So get on the mailing list and get on it because it is such a good gift for the soul. And we talk about our voice being the organ of the soul. And so that's why Pub Choir, one of the many reasons it's so great, but that ability to speak from our soul.
Astrid:
Yeah, absolutely. The collective soul. And you know what, I'll be looking out for you at the next show. I'll be like, did she get a ticket? Where's Sal? Come on now.
Sally:
Oh, you know me. I'll be wearing something out outrageously sparkling, so you won't miss me.
Astrid:
Pub Choir is not a subtle show. Yeah.
Sally:
Oh yeah, yes. Me and all the hundreds of other, uh, people who are in sparkly outfits, I'll have to up the ante even more. Astrid, it's been so great having you on the podcast. Thank you so much.
Astrid:
What an absolute delight. I'll talk to you soon, bye!