208. Get your voice in the media
One of the most valuable ways to grow your audience and build your credibility is to get your voice heard in the media.
In this episode I speak to Publicist and PR Mentor Odette Barry about ...
📸 WHY PR is a great business growth strategy.
📸 The problem with paying for editorial 'listicle' content.
📸 How to pitch to the media - even if you're a complete beginner.
📸 How to prepare to feature in media before you even pitch.
📸 How to ensure the media doesn't publish incorrect information about you.
📸 How she landed a guest spot on Mark Bouris' The Mentor podcast.
Transcript
In breaking news... Did you know I spent 10 years as a TV and radio news journalist and another four and a half actually in public relations, PR, for a major water company? So corporate media training is something I do quite a bit in my business. Training spokespeople to shine in the media. And I also work one-on-one with executives to help them give great media interviews, including crafting their message, which is so important when the stakes are high. You know, in many of these cases, the media is reactive, meaning the journalist is knocking on the door and the company needs to respond. And as we see every day, a good media appearance can enhance the reputation of a company, and a flop can have major negative consequences. So on the flip side, we have proactive media, which is a business or person putting themselves forward to get media coverage and the best in the business to help you do this is on our podcast today.
Sally:
It is Odette Barry. Odette's, a publicist and PR mentor, the creator of the Hack Your Own PR course. What a great name. And we cover so much golden ground in this episode, including why PR is such a great growth strategy, the minefield that is paying for articles. You might have had someone in your DMs trying to sell you this. We cover how you can pitch to the media even if you're a complete beginner. And Odette recently featured on Mark Bouris's podcast. Now, this is one of Australia's most listened to podcasts. He's a huge personality, and Odette generously takes us behind the scenes to share how it all came about and also how she got on top of her nerves for this massive opportunity.
Sally:
Odette Barry, welcome to that voice podcast. So wonderful to have you on the show finally.
Odette:
Oh, thank you so much for having me, Sal.
Sally:
You are the queen of pr. I am constantly in awe with the media that you get, the media you get for your clients. And so my first question is, why is it helpful to get in the media?
Odette:
Well, thank you. That's very kind of you. There's a whole multitude of different reasons why you might want to be in the media as a business owner, I mean like first and foremost, getting in front of more people is always good for business owners to build leads into their business. I don't think it's anything to be sneezed at the impact of being seen and more visible. But there's also lots of different reasons that people go down the PR path and get into media. Sometimes it's about building reputation. So sometimes it's not necessarily about like being in front of a hundred percent of your ideal audience. It's sometimes the association and affiliation with that particular masthead and the credibility that that brings for us. And I see it time and time again with different clients where they might've spent a period of time knocking on doors trying to get deals over the over the line, or get in front of investors or get into major retailers and they knock and they knock and they knock no answer. And then they have a story run in the Australian Financial Review or on sunrise or on a podcast, and suddenly all of those doors they were knocking at are open and people are chasing them down.
Sally:
It's kind of like the, the halo effect or the borrowed credibility, isn't it? It's like, oh, well if you know they're good enough for the AFR, then they're good enough for us.
Odette:
Totally. And I think, you know, like these mastheads have some of them, you know, a hundred plus years of legacy on their side where they have been building trust, reputation, and credibility in their own work. And we get to enjoy the, you know, as you say, halo effect of that trust and credibility being transferred onto us. And, you know, we assume, rightly or wrongly sometimes that the journalists and editors have gone through a vetting process to understand whether the person's credentials are up to scratch, whether their life experience or their work experience validates and justifies that they have a part in those pages. So that kind of vetting process fast tracks customers and you know, that those key stakeholders that we wanna get in front of doing that sort of research themselves.
Sally:
Yeah. And in recent years, this is where it's become a bit blurred, hasn't it? Because people can say, I've been in Yahoo, I've been a top 10 this, I've been in Forbes
Odette:
Or sell!
Sally:
Yeah. And as we see, it's a pay to play where it's not the journalist doing the role. And as you say it sometimes, would you recommend in some cases paying for editorial? Do you think this is a little bit duping for some people where it looks like they've got the piece, you know, just from being selected when really they've just paid money?
Odette:
Yeah, so this is a really interesting one 'cause that did kick off in a big way about, I think it was about five or six years ago, where there were these listicles top 10 voice coaches, top 10 business coaches, top 10 health coaches. And it really was quite interesting how much it was in the coaching domain that these lists were appearing across Forbes, Yahoo, and they were pay to play. So someone was reaching out and approaching a business owner and saying, would you like to be part of this top 10 business coaches list? It's 500, a thousand, 2000, 5,000 varying prices to be included in that top 10 list. So there was no vetting of credentials, it was purely pay to play. Now I find this a really interesting conversation because the vast majority of media headlines come from someone paying somewhere along the line.
Odette:
So you could pay for advertorial, where it is explicit and readers know. I'm reading advertising content. You could pay a publicist to work on your behalf and get you featured in that story. It's less about your credentials and background at that point. It's about the relationships that the publicist has with those media outlets. You could pay for affiliate or one of the new payment methods, which is basically where the media outlets are getting a clip of the ticket to feature you in a story. So there's lots of different places where you are paying. You could also pitch yourself and you're paying in that instance in time, the effort that you have to build the relationships with journalists to get there. So, look, the problem with these listicles that are, you know, the top 10 coaches or whatever it might be, I find, is that consumers and readers are either being duped into thinking that that list is vetted and there for a reason, or they're informed and cynical, and in which case your brand can be tarnished by this somewhat underhanded strategy. So I guess my preference would be learn how to pitch yourself and get your name out there yourself, or pay for a publicist to do it or pay in that affiliate model, which is, you know, a reasonably well, it's becoming increasingly well-known strategy, but it is I I guess a more emerging strategy. Those paid listicles, I think are a little bit tricky to to be, you know, really proud of that kind of media.
Sally:
Yeah, I totally agree. So how do people do it? You do this everyday, you're an absolute expert. My background is in public relations and in journalism, so I've got a bit more of an idea about how it all works. If you're coming in completely fresh and you're going, well, I don't really wanna pay to be one on, on one of these listicles, but I wanna get in the media, how do I do it? How do I pitch myself?
Odette:
Yes. favorite subject matter. So thank you for inviting me to chat about this. So what I always recommend to people is you kind of need to have a a bite of two cakes. One is the humble pie cake and one is the like self-belief cake. And then we climb the clout and credibility ladder. So we need to be munching on both of those cakes, really believing in ourselves and backing ourselves to put ourselves in the public eye. But at the same time, we need to be really checking ourselves, are we where we think we are in terms of the sorts of media that we are going to pitch to? Because by and large, I find most experts or business owners or you know, industry leaders aren't going to get the cover story of the fin or vogue the first time they pitch to media.
Odette:
So you kind of need to think about laddering up to those opportunities and think about really meeting yourself where you are and think about using social media, your blog, your email newsletter, and some of those like foundational owned channels as a way to develop up your ideas so that you can really articulate them with confidence, but also so that you can really start building a little bit of clout and audience and a digital footprint for yourself so that when journalists and producers and news editors are coming looking for talent, you have like a really squeaky clean public profile that will give them confidence to say yes when you're pitching. So I really recommend having an up-to-date LinkedIn profile with, you know, beautiful imagery, a great description of your professional background, up-to-date links to your website, great synopsis of what your skills and capabilities are and any key professional milestones.
Odette:
But equally, if you're a lifestyle brand or in that small business landscape, Instagram and TikTok, these other platforms are also really valuable to have, you know, build a bit of a profile on before you are going into media. So it's choosing the platform, choosing the lane that makes sense for your industry, your expertise and your skill set as well. Because not all of us are Sally Prosser skills, level of TikTok capability, and some of us are better in the written word and maybe stick to LinkedIn if that is the case. You know, it's finding your skill set that really makes sense. And then once you've sort of built that foundational piece, then that's when I recommend starting to get out there and start pitching to media.
Sally:
And I would also say consume the media that you are pitching to. So if you wanna get on Mamma Mia, then read the articles that are on there. It sounds very obvious, but you know, coming from being in television for example, there were so many people that would pitch us stories and have no understanding of what's required for a television news story, like not give us anything to shoot. It would just be like a piece of paper in some wild cases, not even somebody to speak. And it's like, well, how is this gonna work for us? And then one, sometimes people would even admit not watching the news, so consume the media that you are wanting to pitch to. And that leads to my next question, which is around voice. Would you say that media, which includes the voice, so podcasts, radio, television, are stronger for you than just print?
Odette:
I really think in an ideal world it's a multi-channel approach. And I think it's really about meeting yourself, sort of like back to that like laddering up is really understanding what your skill level is and where you are at because you know, those voice platforms are so potent when you're ready. And so I think this is where it's really important to understand what are the gaps in your knowledge and your skills and, and what can you do to get there? Like, you know, undertaking your training, working with you, listening to your podcasts, deep diving through your treasure trove on TikTok. You know, there's, there's so many ways that you can up level to ensure that you are going to be able to take advantage of those mediums. But I think in the early stages, if you are not there yet, don't jump before you can swim. I think it is really important to consider those you know, written word opportunities in the early stages so that you can build your craft and your confidence in your ideas. But if you are ready and able, my goodness, like being able to sit on a podcast for 30 minutes or 45 minutes, so powerful to really articulate your full story and your expertise equally. Brekkie Telly, The Project, 7:30 report. There are so many incredible places where we can tell us our stories using voice.
Sally:
It's so well said. And it goes back to what you were saying earlier. You're not gonna go from zero to live crossing to sunrise. So starting out with making video content on socials, then building up to getting on a podcast, then maybe bigger podcast, then prerecorded interview, and then you can go for those live opportunities, you know, down the track. So yes, come and work with me, do the trainings and also work with the debt because you'll learn all of the ways that you can pitch to be on the media and the results that you get with your clients are amazing.
Odette:
Yeah, thank you. Yeah, I'm so proud of the work that the students who've come through my programs have done. Like, I think, you know, your understanding of the PR world, it can be a stressful domain. You're sort of as a publicist, you've got a client who's paying you for commitments that you may or may not be able to achieve on, on a day. You know, if there's a royal wedding or a royal death or a, you know, landslide, everything is gonna be trumped. You know, no matter the quality of your news story, the news landscape is ever changing. You know, we are dealing with a lot of changes in terms of staff being let go in the last couple of weeks. So as a publicist, it can be a really tricky, stressful game to be playing on expectations on both sides of the fence.
Odette:
But as a business owner, pitching your own news stories, you know, obviously you've got priorities and time, you know, commitments and time deadlines that you want things to happen around. But when you are not putting your hand in your pocket and paying between $5 and $10,000 a month for a publicist, and instead you are perhaps dedicating an hour or two a week to reading, listening, watching at the news, to be across the subject matter that is, you know, pertinent in your space, it means that you can generate those wins with reasonably low input and low tax to you emotionally stressfully and budget-wise. And so for me, as someone who's teaching people how to do that, a I don't have that same stress level that I have when I'm, you know, working on behalf of clients, but that the pride and satisfaction, I think the students across the last five and a half years that I've been running the program have been featured in every major publication in Australia now. And there are thousands of news headlines that they have generated and I just get to sit here happy as a pig in mud. So delighted for them.
Sally:
It's so great. I also think the value in getting into the media, it helps you clarify your own thoughts and your own messaging. So a really good exercise to do is even before you've been invited onto the project to do a story, just imagine that you are on the project and you are being asked about your product. What would you say? How would you describe it? Speak out loud around the house in the shower, you know, this is the way that you can practice to get ready for when those opportunities come in. Or it also helps you feel more confident about going out and pitching for them. Because I know you would hear this as well, I have some students who wanna get in the media and I say, okay, well you're gonna need to contact somebody, you're gonna need to talk to a journalist journal. Oh, I couldn't possibly. It's like, well, you know, you need to speak to the journalist if you're wanting to get into the publication.
Odette:
Yeah, absolutely. And I think like one of the probably most trepidation that people feel is about that phone pitching, and it's not even about the interview itself. People can gear themselves into chatting during an interview and, and going through that process. But the pitching yourself to a journalist or a chief of staff and and selling in your story, that is very intimidating process. But once you can anchor your confidence in that pitch and that, you know, really stepping into a really tricky space for that's gonna spark all your rejection fears, all of the things that capability is going to improve your business development. So when you're pitching for new business, when you're doing public speaking events, it's not just pitching to media that that's going to support it is I just think it's such a beautiful skill that supports so much more than just PR.
Sally:
Oh, I did. I'm so glad that you said that. It's so true. And having been in a newsroom environment, don't take it personally like this is going back years ago, I was a journalist about 10 years ago and it would not be unusual for me to get a couple of thousand emails a day, a thousand. And especially when you are out in the road and doing other things, emails get missed so easily. You know, I would get email, one missed, two missed, three missed, someone calls you and you have five minutes on the phone. If you get a good idea, then you're gonna act on it.
Odette:
Absolutely. And I just always urge everyone, don't begin pitching if you're not gonna be willing to follow up and you're not gonna be willing to pick up the phone and have that pitch chat because that is really where we see it translate for people.
Sally:
Yeah. And so I worked in the PR team for Urban Utilities, which is a water and sewage company up here. And I remember we worked for all the glam stories. Oh the, yes, the Glam Girl for sewage. We worked a long time to get this story up about flushable wipes, right? So even though it says flushable, they're not flushable and they were causing lots of blockages and it's not a sexy story, but it's important, right? So we were working more for so long to, to get this story up and we got a lot of traction actually just throwing it in there. It actually led to the ACCC making a ruling against these products being able to be labeled as flushable. So it ended up being really, really great work that made it important change for the environment. And one morning when my boss got invited onto ABC radio to do a live interview, she's about a couple of minutes into the interview, which is still great, a couple of minutes, good airtime. And then it was the morning of that horrible lint cafe siege in Sydney.
Odette:
Oh yeah.
Sally:
This is why it's so important to not be precious about the rejections news happens and things will always take the place and you never know, you could get a no 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 times. And on that sixth time, if you change a little bit of the angle and you get somebody at the right time, the right season, the right news cycle, you know, and little things like don't call a newsroom at 9:00 AM everyone's on the conference call and things like that, then as you say, you're not only getting a better chance of being in the media, but it's such great work that you can do on yourself to break through that fear of rejection.
Odette:
Totally, totally. And I think, like I often say to people, move like water, which funnily, that's something that you be channeling as well.
Sally:
Through the pipes free of blockages.
Odette:
Free the blockages, but you know, to really to be agile and be okay with going with the flow of things. So sometimes that means zooming out from the story you really wanted to tell and being okay with moving closer to what the agenda of that publication is. So sometimes that might be that, you know, I might have wanted to come and talk about pr, but actually you really wanna talk about copywriting tips or voice tips or, you know, and it's really just being, remembering that our agenda is not the only agenda at play. So if a news anchor or a producer or a editor is trying to push you in a certain direction to ensure that you have the humility to see what the opportunity is, and if you are great to work with and you're like, sure, no problem. Happy to, you know, work in the way that makes sense for you, they're going to be a gazillion times more likely to invite you back again to do another piece in the future that maybe, may be closer to the agenda that you really wanted to push.
Sally:
Hmm. And just circling back to what you were saying about social media, so many news stories are coming directly from social media. So every time you make a video online, imagine, you know, could this be picked up? So you might've seen there's been a couple of stories I've done about voice, which have been picked up by the Daily Mail, and also a story that I did about my mom who was involved with the Mascot Towers debacle, it's crazy, it's been going on for so many years, but one night, you know, she was particularly upset and I thought, oh, this is so terrible. So I did this video. It's always the way, isn't it? The lighting was not very good. I had like,
Odette:
It was so powerful though, Sal, because it was really real and emotive and you just really told the story. And I know for me, I often think, I wonder how Sal's mom is, you know, like, it's really powerful to use social media as that tool to drive conversations. And when you get that traction, the media publications know, this story's got resonance with right now, people really care about this. And then as you say, two minutes later, that's been picked up by Daily Mail.
Sally:
Everything you say online can be taken and used as a quote.
Odette:
Totally. And I think that this is like, comes back to that first point about LinkedIn and making sure that that is really accurate because I've seen it happen time and time again where clients have been like, oh no, we don't have that many employees, or No, we don't have this or that. And the way that the journalists found that information is from their LinkedIn, because LinkedIn is the most highly optimized search results on Google for your first and last name. So they are always going to look there and assume that if you have published that information on your LinkedIn.
Sally:
It is accurate made and accurate.
Odette:
Get people to do a keyword search of your first and your last name and see what Google throws up because you know, there might have been a blog or an interview that you did in a previous role that really doesn't like represent where you are. It's okay to reach out to those people and ask them to retire articles or you know, places where you are quoted online. You know, some people will be agreeable, some people may be less, you know, agreeable. But it's, it's definitely worth it because I know, you know, I've had it happen with clients where it'll be like the third or fourth page of Google search results that are getting huge spikes in traffic when you are mentioned in the news when people just go trolling, trying to find any information about you.
Sally:
Yeah, thank goodness for Facebook memories because Facebook came out when I was at uni, so of course back then it was just a whole lot of debaucherous photos of usually involving alcohol. So when they come I'm like, oh good untag, delete. I can go back.
Odette:
Oh, no fun Sal. I wanna see the debaucherous version of you getting loose.
Sally:
Oh goodness me, me at foam parties when I'm at uni. Oh gosh,
Odette:
More of that front and center.
Sally:
I know I'm all a bit too, you know, there's too much decorum lately. So if there's anything else you'd like to add, I
Odette:
Guess like the biggest thing that I would say is that if you are thinking about doing a big leap in your career, going for a new job, new, you know, opportunities or if you are looking to level up in your business, one of the most poorly understood areas of like growth opportunities, I think is PR and building visibility in media, not many people do it. So if you want to have the upper hand and sort of pull that lever that not too many people know about, then pitching yourself, putting yourself out on podcasts and out to traditional media mastheads, it's really worth it right now.
Sally:
And you are recently on Mark Bouris's podcast, which is huge. Can we ask how you pitched for that?
Odette:
Yes, absolutely. So you know, went through exactly the steps that I have gone through that I teach in my programs, and one part of that is relationships, fostering a relationship with the team on his podcast, the producers, the decision makers over a period of time, but also then considering what are the credibility markers that they're looking for and matching that in a pitch. Also thinking about what subject matter and topics they're looking for for their audience, putting that into the pitch and also being really bold and courageous and just hitting send when I really didn't want to because it was a scary leap forward for me. And then also being really open to what that experience would look like in terms of follow-up. Those things don't necessarily happen overnight. The first pitch was fired off in February. The relationship was kicked off, I think maybe the February prior that was fostered over a period of time.
Odette:
There were several follow-ups to the email initially. And then there was also I think three re reschedules of the actual interview itself around scheduling conflicts and then put my big girl pants on, flew down to Sydney for the interview. And yeah, I just, I think one of the things that I would also say when it comes to Mark, so I rule of 10 for me, is listen to at least 10 episodes of the podcast before you pitch. I also in my preparation for the podcast interview itself went and listened to 10 episodes where Mark had been interviewed on other people's podcasts so that I had a really good sense of his backstory and didn't have assumptions of sort of maybe what I'd read here and there I had a really like confident sense of his backstory, what he was interested in, what his like flavor was.
Odette:
But I also, having had several clients on his podcast before, I also had a pretty good sense of his format, his style. And I would say for anyone that is going to sit in the hot seat with Mark is be like water. You have to flow with his style. You know, his producers will always send through preparation. 90% of the time he's not going to read that preparation and he will sit down in front of you and have no idea who you are. His producers have made a decision to have you there. And there were definitely some curve balls in there that I was not ready for that I, you know, I probably could have anticipated, I knew there would be some curve balls because that is his flavor. But yeah, look, the whole experience has been incredible, you know, to be part of that the mentor platform to be within his halo, it's been really valuable for my business and for any other business owners that are looking to build visibility or experts who have, you know, really interesting backstories or knowledge to share, highly recommend going through that process and having a crack at pitching there.
Sally:
So. Great. And how did you feel when you first got that response that yes, it was happening and you were booked in?
Odette:
Well, I would say I was eating from both the terrified, what the hell am I doing? Cake and the believe in yourself, you've done the work for this, done this. It was really, yeah, I like to be honest, Sal, like I've done a lot of work on my confidence to get myself to a point, to be able to step forward and share my stories, but it doesn't come easily and it definitely comes with that fear of failure of being found out as an imposter of not having the right thing to say of other people knowing more than me. And so I sat with all of those emotions in the lead up to it and that email coming back those, yes, we'd love to have you as a guest was definitely met with some, some real fear
Sally:
And a bit of celebration.
Odette:
Definitely, definitely. I think the celebration, to be completely honest, because I, I felt like I had to activate a fortress mind to really maintain wellness and enthusiasm in the lead up to something like that. Like I, I definitely, the level of nerves that I experience can be quite sickening for me. And it does make me quite unwell and it blocks me from being able to think properly. And so I activated a fortress mode and I didn't allow myself to think negative thoughts. So I knew the negative thoughts were there, but I chose different narratives that I let myself explore. So rather than letting myself say the words, I am nervous in my head. I stayed on the line of, I'm excited. I was walking around the streets of Sydney in the day beforehand and I went out for dinner with friends the night before.
Odette:
They all know I'm a Nervous Nellie and that like, I would've been panicking. And they were like, so how are you feeling? And I was like, I'm good. I'm really good. I'm, I'm excited about this. And I just did not entertain any of those negative thoughts. I walked around Sydney just playing like in my head, this playlist of affirmations. This is gonna be a fun conversation. This is going to be an interesting conversations where I couldn't believe it would be a great conversation because I just, the self-doubt would pick that apart. I would choose affirmations that were sort of moderate that would get me over the line.
Sally:
Yeah, ones that you can believe.
Odette:
Ones that I could believe, exactly. I wish I could say to myself, this is gonna be an amazing conversation. You're going to be so fantastic, but that's just not believable for my psyche.
Sally:
Yeah, and you know, you, we can say affirmations to wear blue in the face, you know, I'm an amazing person, I'm a great public speaker. If we haven't got that sense of belief, it's not gonna work. Oh, Odette, that is so great. And you were mentioning that it has affected your business. You've seen the results of it.
Odette:
Yeah, absolutely. So within you know, a few moments of the podcast going live, I had a couple of sales through my hack your own PR online course, and that's continued to trickle through. I've had many, many messages from various people leads for client relationships. Yeah, it's been incredible.
Sally:
Yeah and such a great credibility builder because people who are working with you, they can see that you've done what they're trying to do.
Odette:
Yeah. And it's really nice to be able to you know, walk other people through that experience. One, i, a a beautiful woman reached out to me after the podcast and she said to me, oh, I'm going to be on Mark's podcast in a couple of weeks. I'm so nervous about this. And we ended up having a beautiful conversation and I just gave a blow by blow of everything to expect to be able to walk in there in her most confident version of herself.
Sally:
Oh, that is so great. And finally, if people are listening to this going, I really want to hack my own PR, how can they work with you?
Odette:
Look, I'm really passionate about supporting changemakers. So people that are, you know, looking at the world right now, they can see the injustices, the inequality, and the issues regarding climate or indigenous incarceration rates or domestic violence. And they have solutions for those really complex and tricky problems. So I work on retainer services for a small book of clients for those people that want someone to do the PR for them, but I also run a number of programs of different degrees to teach people how to do it themselves.
Sally:
Odette Barry, thank you so much for coming on that voice podcast.
Odette:
Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.