220. Speaking + Leadership Lessons from Improv
What will a serious health scare and improvised theatre teach you about speaking and leadership?
In this episode Leadership expert Kate Peardon tells us!
Lessons like ...
- Be in the moment
- Listen to understand not respond
- Control is not the answer
Kate also shares really practical tips to improve your communication as a leader and speaker.
Transcript
Welcome to Episode 220 of That Voice Podcast. My friend and leadership expert, Kate Peardon is our guest. And Kate brings such a unique perspective to leadership and speaking shaped by two main things. So the first is a terrible health event that came her way in 2018. Kate shares the story in her own words and she explains how something so big shifted the way she approached both leadership and speaking. And secondly, Kate is a theater extraordinaire. She has an incredible singing voice performs in musicals. And today we focus on the Art of Improv, which is improvised theater. And she talks about the lesson she's been able to draw for herself and her clients to become better speakers and better leaders. As a former perfectionist theater kid myself, who used to be terrified of unplanned scenes like improv. My God, it was my worst nightmare. This conversation really helped me reflect on my own lessons from theater and also the role it played in helping me overcome that need to have everything scripted and planned and rehearsed. So if you feel that need to be in control and be over prepared and have everything go exactly how you planned, settle in. This one's for you.
Sally:
Kate Peardon, welcome to that voice podcast. Wonderful to have you on the show. Finally!
Kate:
Thank you Sally. We have been friends for many a year and finally gracing each other's podcasts.
Sally:
Love that. So over to you Kate. Tell us about who you are and what you do.
Kate:
My company's called Zenith Journey and it's all focused around leadership. So I got into this particular line of work 'cause I worked so much in corporate in both Australia and overseas. And I just found that people were not great at leadership 'cause they're taught technically how to do their job. And then when you're really good at your technical job, you get given a team to lead and it's such a different skill set. So I realized that there's a lot to be done for leadership and if we actually taught people how to be good at leadership, it would make such better businesses and such better people that we're working with. So I got into leadership and I studied positive psychology and leadership. And as someone that is a musician myself and a performer and a singer, getting in front of a group and presenting to people became so natural for me. And I didn't realize how this was something that I had as a gift or something that I'd worked on was actually such a transferable skill.
Sally:
Absolutely. And Kate, I've learned so much from you about leadership, so thank you. So let's go through what happened in 2018.
Kate:
So 2018 I was working as head of HR for a construction company. I was also having my own business. I was traveling backwards and forth to Spain studying my Masters of Positive Psychology and leadership.
Sally:
To Spain. I didn't know that.
Kate:
Yeah, I mean, look, it was a big draw card to doing the Masters there. So I would go for a one week intensive, have a holiday for a week, and then spend three months implementing what I had learned in my clients' business and the business that I was working in. And the day after I got back from one of those trips, I was out cycling one morning and I had a vertebral artery dissection, which is in more layman turds. It was a mini stroke, so a form of brain injury. And at the time I didn't think it was a big deal, but as the weeks and months progressed, I realized it actually was a big deal and it really impacted me and my identity. And I could not work. I couldn't walk more than 10 meters. I couldn't tell you what day it was. Making a sandwich was something that was really impossible to do because I couldn't work out the order of things. It really impacted my brain and how I thought.
Sally:
Oh my gosh, Kate. So going back to that morning on the bike, what happened in the moment?
Kate:
People refer to it as like a whip crack. So it's, there's an artery that's in the back of your neck that takes blood to your brain and it had this spontaneous tear to it and it felt like this instant crack in my neck. And I sort of didn't think too much of it. I thought perhaps I'd just hurt my neck coming back on the flight and sort of talk the shortcut home. But as the day went on, I started to get more and more of these impacts of not being able to walk straight, not being able to think properly. But of course, 'cause I couldn't think, it was hard for me to realize that something was a big problem.
Sally:
So tell us a bit about the recovery.
Kate:
The biggest challenge I had was actually the hit on my identity because I identified myself as someone that was very quick in how I thought that I knew exactly what was going on. I was very organized. I was very busy. I was working, I was studying, I was doing a musical. I was, I had so much on and all of a sudden all of those things disappeared. So I wasn't able to work. I wasn't able to sing, I wasn't able to do any exercise. I wasn't able to think. And the thinking part was actually the hardest 'cause I realized that I took as so much of my identity is that I am a really quick thinker and all of a sudden I could not think at all and my brain was really, really slow.
Sally:
Oh wow. Kate, what a thing to go through. You mentioned that you were doing a musical amongst all of this. And I've had the pleasure of watching you perform in Little Shop of Horrors, which is actually a musical that we did at my high school growing up. So I'm really into Little Shop.
Kate:
Yeah.
New Speaker:
I was not one of the lead characters. Like you were, what are they called? The Do Up Girls?
Kate:
Yeah, that's it.
Sally:
Yes. I was just somebody in the chorus with a baby on Skid Row struggling. So you're a fantastic singer. Performing and theater is a big part of your life. Did you use theater or improv or anything like that to help after the stroke?
Kate:
One thing that I wanted to do, because I wasn't able to sing for a couple of years, and it's a bit of a complex answer, it's too much pressure putting through this damaged artery. So I wasn't able to sing and I wanted to do something that was for me that could also help in how I was thinking about things. I took for granted how quick I was at thinking. And as a leader, a lot of my confidence came from the fact that I thought that I could think faster than other people. And when they were in a problem or having an issue or asking for my advice that I could solve their problem faster than they could explain it to me. What I now know is like that is totally not great leadership and it's more about being in the moment and being able to respond to what's happening and listening to understand rather than listening to respond.
Kate:
And one thing I decided to do was to take some classes in improv, which is improvised theater, which Sally is another theater kid you would understand. But for those that are not familiar, it's a form of theater and it's often comedy, but it's all unplanned and unscripted. And it's created in the moment of those performers. So some people talk about this game called Bus Stop, where one person would go on stage and you stand there, you sit or you're sitting at a bus stop, another person walks up and then what happens then is a moment between these two actors and it is created on that spot. I took these classes to help improve my thinking and it ended up improving my leadership. Because what I realized is I would go into these improvised situations and I wanted to control the whole thing. No surprise for people that know me, I wanted to control the other person.
Kate:
I wanted to control the outcome. I was driving it somewhere and the coach that was working with us had said, Kate, you know, you need to let go of all your beliefs of what you think should be happening here and your sense of control and you need to be in the moment. You need to sit and listen to what's happening around you and work with the people. Don't control the people. And this became such a wonderful lesson for me in my leadership of I need to actually be present with my people and not think 10 steps ahead what I thought was successful, understand what's going on, and then devise a solution with them, not control them. Yeah.
Sally:
It's such a great teacher, isn't it? I remember doing speech and drama growing up. One of the improv activities was the examiner would give us an item item and we had to create a scene around the item. And it could be anything from a pen off the desk to a soft toy, to any item that they could have brought in. And I found this so nerve wracking as a controlling perfectionist, who liked to have everything thought out. I outlined like 25 to 30 different scenarios that could match any particular item. So I wasn't caught without an idea and my teacher said something very similar to me back then. If you do that, you are losing that trust in yourself. Even though an item is not a person giving a a cue, it is still something to listen to and be able to react to in the moment. And from memory, the item I got was a scrubbing brush. I just in the moment went into a scenario I hadn't prepared, which was where I was Cinderella or something, climbing the floor. And it was so great. And I remember thinking, wow, that was so much better than anything that I had pre-rehearsed or pre-practised.
Kate:
Absolutely.
Sally:
So would you say improv also teaches you that the magic is often in that spontaneity is in those moments?
Kate:
Absolutely. And that trust in yourself that you can just let it happen rather than control it. And I think it's the same with speaking and getting in front of a group and you think you have to have everything scripted and you have to say everything word for word. It has to be perfect and you have to control it because that makes me feel comfortable. And I think you're probably very similar talking about our experiences there of theater, how to like know enough about how to present and how to feel comfortable and connect to yourself and then let the rest happen
Sally:
A hundred percent. You know? And recovering from those perfectionism needing to be in control tendencies has made the biggest difference, on my life and my business. And also the way that I coach, you know, the word confidence you might've heard, you know, means to trust.
Kate:
Oh yes. I think this even became a wonderful lesson for my stroke rehab is I wanted to have the plan and I wanted to control everything. And I thought if I did these things that I would get better faster. And I had a lot of people talk to me and say, Kate, you can't push your way to recover faster. You can't do more to recover faster. You need to be in the moment and let it happen and do the things that you can control, but you can't control everything that's not gonna give you a better outcome. The lessons that I took from that for my recovery, and now also just in everyday life and in leadership and in speaking, like be in the moment, listen to understand or listen to respond and control is not the answer.
Sally:
This is a great spot to remind you. It doesn't matter what you say or to who you say it to, if you are not connected to your voice, people can feel it. This is why you need the Magnetic Voice Formula. If you're a Soul Speaker, it's in the portal. If not link is in the show notes. So would you say there are any other techniques or lessons that came out of your experience and your use of improv?
Kate:
Yes. There's a couple of favorites. Anyone that is familiar with even the slightest bit of improv will know the term. Yes, And. So often there's no but or yes. But, so for example, if someone says, I think we should bring on a new team member to do blah, blah, blah, you could say no because of whatever. Or you could say Yes, but we don't have the budget? Or you can say yes and what would we need to make that work? So it's building what happens before instead of shooting it down. And Ted Lesser, they say, don't bring an umbrella to a brainstorm. So how can you build on what's, what people have said instead of unintentionally shooting them down? So that's a big rule of improv. If someone says, Oh, your hair's on fire, you don't say, No, it's not!
Sally:
No it's not. Yeah, I was thinking of something quite similar in an improv class that I was part of where the invitation was, oh, and Sally, you do not look well at all. It wasn't actually me, it was somebody else. And they've gone, No, I'm, I'm fine, you know, when there was this perfect invitation for them to act out some kind of illness. And it really showed how it blocked the flow of the scene. And so I love how applying that to leadership.
Kate:
Yeah. And I think if you're presenting, if you're doing a keynote speech or even if you're presenting something to your company and someone has a question and you block it, you've blocked everything where they're say, Yeah, that's a really great question. I wonder how we could and you build on it?
Sally:
Yeah. And it's also a great way to approach any random things that could happen in the middle of a presentation, like the tech failing or spilling your water or tripping over or, I was in a workshop the other day and the fire alarm went off and the whole building got evacuated, you know? So when you sort of treat it off, Okay, this is an improv and whatever comes in I need to respond to it, it also helps you be more adaptable on the stage.
Kate:
That's a really lovely idea. And something you just mentioned about that invitation in was probably the third thing that I've taken from improv is so when you start a scene and you're creating it in the moment, there might be two people that have already worked out what their characters are. They might be a royal family and there's some drama because the, the water is polluted. But then you've got these other four people there thinking they don't know what they're doing, they haven't been invited into the conversation and they're trying to work out what is expected of me. And I remember being in one of those situations and somebody invited me into this moment of giving me a name, a character, and something that I was doing. So they said, well the court gesture here is always full of ideas. They're not always good ones. What was the latest one that you came up with about this sheep?
Kate:
And it gave me a role, it gave me a purpose. And I was in, and I think about this as a leader, you know what you're doing. Maybe someone in your team knows what you're doing, but everybody else is still waiting to be given a role and a purpose. How can you be generous and invite them into your world and give them something to do to feel part of it? And I always do it now when I'm at an event. And if there's someone that's standing by themselves or they're not included or in a team and they don't know what's clear, how can I invite them in and give them a purpose?
Sally:
Oh, Kate. I love that story. And I've been at workshops that you've facilitated and you do that so well. I'll remember that now. If anyone's left out, they're the court jester and something's happened with the sheep!Because you can also apply that to meetings. You know, often the dominant communicators will be talking, talking, talking. And people who are perhaps a bit more introverted or just need to be invited to speak often have the best idea.
Kate:
Because they've actually thought about it before they open their mouth.
Sally:
And as a leader it's so important to offer that.
Kate:
Absolutely. And I'd even tell people prior to the meeting, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. So if you wanna take a few minutes to think about what you'd like to share, it'd be great to do it prior to the meeting. So there's particularly that are more introverted or like to think before they speak, they know what to expect and they don't feel put on the spot yet. They're also included.
Sally:
Yeah. That's also why before workshops or meetings, especially online that I run for companies, I make a little video if they haven't seen my face before, just saying, Hi, this is who I am. It's honestly less than less than a minute. And I'll put together a little agenda in the email just to give people a heads up on what to think about. Kate's so amazing. Is there any other top communication tips for leaders?
Kate:
One top communication tip is about having the conversation. Often there's a conversation that you need to have and that you are not having for a reason, that you are worried about what they might think or it's going to be awkward. Or what if you get the words wrong or if you stumble over your words or how it's gonna come across and you're avoiding it. One of my tips would be have the conversation and even saying it's gonna be an awkward conversation, or Look, I need to have a chat to you about something, it's gonna be a bit uncomfortable. Or, I'm trying to get the words right so please bear with me while I do it. Even an awkward conversation. Don't feel like you have to have it polished to make it worthwhile. Sometimes to the most awkward, uncomfortable, clunky conversations are the most authentic and people really value it that you've given it a go rather than wanting it to be perfect.
Sally:
Oh, I love that. Episode 215 of the podcast is called Three Tips for Tricky Conversations. I second that. The thing with tricky conversations is they're always better being had than being avoided.
Kate:
Absolutely.
Sally:
Oh, Kate. So now where are we at? 2024. So we're six years on from that morning on the bike. Do you feel now that you are back to being that fast person?
Kate:
It's an interesting question for anyone that's gone through like a rehabilitation process, to think that you are going to be the person you were is unrealistic because I have changed from going through that experience. And also if my goal was to be back where I was, that's unfair on who I am now. So I'm definitely different. I'm definitely a lot quicker than I was then. I'm not as quick as I used to be. But I also have a lot more, a lot more comfort in who I am. And I don't need to have the answers. I don't need to be the best, I don't need to be quicker to show that I'm good enough. I felt through that experience that I've learned to have a lot more just calm confidence in myself no matter what the situation or what's happening. And that has been a gift that I would not change for anything.
Sally:
So great. Oh, Kate, was there anything else you'd like to add?
Kate:
Everybody has a story to share and if being worried about your voice is holding you back, then find a way to get through that 'cause I think it's a shame that we only hear the voices of those that have the confidence to put it out there versus the stories that we could be hearing.
Sally:
Oh, yes. And that's a big reason for why I have the business that I do. Absolutely. So thank you so much for sharing that. How can people find you? They'd like to connect?
Kate:
They can find me on my website, zenithjourney.com or on LinkedIn for Kate Peardon. I'm a pretty unique name, so if you just Google me, you'll find me and you'll probably find a few different things of musical theater. I've been doing all my podcast, Level Up Leadership, which Sally be a guest on soon.
Sally:
Fantastic. Kate, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Kate:
Thanks, Sally.