170. How to Be your Weird Wonderful Self with Kate Toon
Let's face it we're all a bit weird - and not everyone is going to like it!
But if we want to be magnetic and free in how we show up online and onstage we need to embrace our weird and WONDERFUL selves.
Who better to talk about this than the wonderful Kate Toon - author, digital marketing coach, business mentor and self proclaimed bumfluencer!
Kate shares a bazillion nuggets of wisdom in this episode, including -
🙃 Why we're afraid to be weird.
🙃 HOW to identify the things that make you YOU.
🙃 The TEST to make sure you’re showing up authentically.
🙃 How to have the courage to show your true self to others – even the bad bits.
🙃 Some super practical hacks to avoid posting something you’ll later regret.
🙃 The best platform to start sharing online.
🙃 A really cool exercise to learn your unique tone of voice.
Transcript
Let's face it, we're all a bit weird and not everyone is going to like us, but if we want to be magnetic and free in how we show up online and on stage, we need to embrace our weird and wonderful selves. And who better to talk about this than the wonderful Kate Toon. Kate is an author, a digital marketing wiz, a business mentor, and a self-proclaimed "bumfluenccer". Love that! My favorite thing about Kate is that she's such a genuine person. We've been in each other's circles for a while, and she's so generous with her knowledge and also support. And this episode honestly has like a bazillion nuggets of wisdom. So the key things to listen out for is how to identify the things that make you you the test to make sure you are showing up authentically. Kate talks about how to have the courage to show your true self to others, even the bad bits. There's some super practical hacks to avoid posting something you'll later regret. Kate tells us the best platform to start sharing online. There's also a really cool exercise to learn your unique tone of voice. Are you ready to really step into your weird, wonderful self? I'm so excited to bring you this amazing chat with Kate.
Sally:
Kate Toon, welcome to That Voice Podcast. So great to have you on the show.
Kate:
I am thrilled to be here. Thank you for having me.
Sally:
Oh, Kate, there are so many things I love about what you do, and one of the main things is that you are unapologetically yourself. What you see is what you get. How do you do it?
Kate:
Well, I guess I didn't do it for a long time. You know, when I started off in business, I tried to be like everybody else and, you know, professional and, and I don't know, not scruffy, and, you know, just what I thought being a business owner should be. And then it was exhausting. I wasn't very good at it. I didn't feel comfortable. It made it much harder to show up as we say, you know, to do the lives, to do the whatever. And so I started to slowly introduce myself to the world gently at first. And then now I kind of just don't care. I am who I am, and if you like me, you like me. And if you don't, you don't. And some people don't and that's fine.
Sally:
But a lot of people do. This is the thing, the more we are ourselves, the more we really attract our people. It's better to have those raving fans than just a whole lot of people who are like, meh.
Kate:
Yeah, that's it. The vanilla. And, you know, I'm in marketing. Good marketing is about being divisive. It's as much about people disliking you, is liking you. But the other thing for me is I've met a lot of my heroes. And when you meet them and they are so different to the persona they put out online, it's so disappointing. And I never want someone to meet me and go, Wow, you are not quite the person I thought you were. You know, I hate that. I really want people to meet me and think I am just, just as I came across.
Sally:
Yeah, it's, it is, it's the best compliment, isn't it? When people meet you and go, oh, I feel like I know you. And you're just like, you are online. You're like, oh, great. Doing something right there. So take us through, we hear a lot these phrases. Be yourself. Just go out there and don't try to be something else. Have you got any practical examples? What were the parts of you that you were potentially holding back because you thought they weren't quote unquote professional and then you slowly started to show?
Kate:
Yeah, I mean, I think what makes us, us, it's your interests. It's your sense of humor. It's your quirks. So often we will hide those things. Like, you know, if you're mad about cats or something, you might mention you have a cat, but the fact that you're, you have cat wallpaper in your bedroom and wear cat pajamas, you might keep that to yourself. Don't. Share that, because someone else is gonna find that adorable, hilarious and find a real engagement point. Quirks anything weird that you do, as long as it's not too weird. I mean, you know, some things we don't wanna share. Your sense of humor is a difficult one because sometimes my sense of humor, I'm very dry. I'm British and very sarcastic. Love a bit of banter. And sometimes that doesn't translate on Facebook comments. Some people are like, What? And I'm like, it was a joke.
Kate:
It was a joke. You need a sarcasm fun. And then you know, your values. So I think in the last couple of years through all the Black Lives Matter and COVID, there was a lot of discussion about where do you stand on the issue of this? Where do you stand on the issue of that? And traditionally we're taught in business not to share that stuff. Don't talk about religion, don't talk about politics. But I think these days people want us to share our opinions on these kind of issues and to be who we are. Like if you are a card-carrying member of the Ku Klux Klan, you know, maybe tell people that, because I don't wanna work with you if you are. You don't wanna choose someone or go and see someone speak or listen to their podcast for episode after episode and then find out they've got this horrible nefarious side of them that you never knew about. So I just think you need to lay all your cards on the table, even the bad ones.
Sally:
Absolutely. It's it's just as much about telling people who we're not for, than telling people who we are for. Recently on Instagram, I put a post up about periods, you know? Yeah. And my partners did the same thing. He's like, Oh, do you really wanna be putting that out there? And I said, if somebody is watching that and saying, because she's speaking about that, I don't wanna work with her, then I probably wouldn't wanna work with them anyway. So.
Kate:
Exactly. You know, it takes a while to get that confidence to talk about that kind of stuff. We're seeing more and more people talking about their neurodiversity, you know, gender issues. I've spoken a bit more about the fact that I gave up alcohol and that I've had depression. You know, I don't think you need to share all your sad stories, you know, I don't think you should use trauma as a token to win fans and influence. But I think if it's relevant to your story and your audience, then why not? You are a fully formed human being who has periods we're allowed to talk about these things. And if, as you said, if people don't like that, then they're probably not for you.
Sally:
Yeah. So what about, what will people think? It's on the internet forever. What will people think? How will they judge? How do you overcome that fear?
Kate:
Well, the thing is, I mean, I do think you should be conscious that it is on the internet forever. Unfortunately, I think we should be conscious of that. And also that what you share in a private space is not private. There's a fantastic book by John Ronson called, yYou've Been Publicly Shamed which is about a couple of people who shared things, you know, somewhat in private and then they were public and it ruined their lives. You know, they were known for that forever. So I do think you have to tread relatively carefully. But also if you post something that is not quite right and you apologize and you say that you'll learn from it, that's the end of it. What do people want from you? You know, to flagellate yourself in public. So, you know, I do think there needs to be a degree of caution.
Kate:
We can't just go out there just spouting forth about every issue. I think we need to take pause. Don't make videos when you've had a couple of glasses of wine. Don't make videos in anger. Don't react. So, you know, sometimes people will post stuff online that's quite triggering. And I have to sit back and go, why am I triggered by that? Do I need to wade into this discussion? You know, don't get to the point where you're arguing with strangers on the internet. I mean, that's kind of, you know, try and take the moral high grounds, you know, you don't need to answer every comment. So yeah, I mean, I do think it's something to be conscious of. And I think that's unfortunately what puts people off, saying anything at all. 'cause They're so scared of making a mistake and it being around forever.
Sally:
Mm-Hmm. And this is the thing, even though the things we put on the internet may be permanent, it doesn't mean we as humans need to be permanent. Like, I know there are a lot of things that I've posted in my past that I would completely differently about now. Alcohol being one of the same things for me as well. And that's okay.
Kate:
Yeah. We're allowed to evolve.
Sally:
We're allowed to evolve. We're allowed to change. So I think that that message is also helpful.
Kate:
It is. And the truth is, at the end of the day, if someone's determined to take offense from what you're doing or determined to dislike you, they'll find something. You could have posted the most innocuous post in the world and someone somewhere will be pissed off about it. I did a funny post in my Facebook group, misfit Entrepreneur with a, just a picture of an egg. And I was like, let's see how much of an argument we can have about this egg. And there were like 250 comments. It was all in jest, but it looked like a thread about some issue. Do you know what I mean? And it just showed that. It was hilarious. People were saying, why haven't you credited the, credited the chicken who laid this egg? You know, this egg is setting up unrealistic standards for eggs in the environment. You are perpetuating a myth of Eggdom. It just went on and on and on and on. And it, and I think the thing is, if someone's determined to dislike you, they will find a way even if you haven't posted something out there or weird.
Sally:
Yeah. So let's talk about that word "weird". Why are we afraid to be weird?
Kate:
There's a great person I follow on Twitter called The Captain. And he said a post the other day. He said, we need more people who are genuinely weird, not cultivated, curated weird, not trying to be wacky, but just being themselves and sharing their oddness weirdness is what makes humans brilliant. Who are the people you remember in your life? They're not the vanilla people. They are the people who wore a weird jumper or said something odd at an event or made you laugh or said something really inappropriate. Weirdness is memorable. Weirdness is adorable and endearing, but weirdness is divisive. So the reason why people don't wanna do it is 'cause they're scared of people not liking them. We're all want to be liked. Our core being, we wanna be liked and accepted by the tribe. You know, we don't wanna be the outcast living in our own little cave while everyone else is over there eating the mammoth. We want to be part of that mammoth gang. You know, the thing is though, everyone is weird. And if you put your weirdness out there, you find the other weirdos that are weird like you. There's train spotters and there's people who are obsessed with shoes and there's people who make donuts every weekend. You'll find your people, but you won't find them if you're not sharing that stuff because they won't be attracted to you.
Sally:
Mm-Hmm. So not being a people pleaser, putting your weirdness out there, you know, I feel like we can hear a lot of these messages. What's something practically somebody could do today to take one step to put out there? I, I'm thinking of like the bat signal put out the weirdo bat signal to call the other weirdos in what, 'cause not everybody is ready to, you know, bear it all on a live Instagram, for example. What's a small step that someone can take?
Kate:
Well, I think first, the first step is to redefine your concept of weird. You do not need to be a huge extrovert, wacky, ducky, hilarious person to share your true self. If we take weird away and just do wonderful self in this title. Find your wonderful, yeah. Find what you think makes something a little bit different about you that you love. Like you're obsessed with rollerskating. And I think one of the easiest place to start sharing that stuff is in Instagram stories, because they are transient. They do go away, you know, like of all the things on the internet, they're probably the most transient.
Sally:
Yeah, I agree.
Kate:
And I find that that's people expect from stories that behind the scenes, raw, more used stuff. And then you can keep your wall all professional and sexy and lovely. You know, you can, you can do that. And I think that's one way to start just showing, Hey look, this is what I'm doing at the weekend. And it's a picture of you rollerskating and someone, someone's gonna go, Oh my God, I love rollerskating. Great. Get that little bit of encouragement in your writing online, wherever it may be. Just start to introduce a few of your favorite idioms and phrases and weird adjectives. We've all got weird terms of phrases. We may not be able to hear them, but other people can. So one way to find that out is to record yourself speaking. Don't write, record yourself speaking. Like pick the topic that you love. You know, if you were talking about speaking, you could talk about that for 45 minutes without taking a breath. Right? Although you would 'cause breathing's important.
Kate:
You know, pick your topic, talk about it out loud as if you're talking to a good friend and record that. Then go through what you've said and try and highlight any phrases which are a bit unusual, any idioms or metaphors or similes or adjectives that are very you. And then make a list of them. And that becomes your personal tone of voice. That's your style guide. And over egg them, start using those phrases more and more often. And people will start to recognize your writing without even knowing who it is. You know, sometimes people will read a post of mine and they'll be like, I knew it was yours before I even saw the photo. And I'm like, Oh, I've got that there. I've really, I haven't, I've knocked it down. And that might mean that you slightly over egg it for a while, you slightly over, you know what I mean? You slightly overdo it just to get people to recognize it and then you can pull that back again. Somebody used Chat GPT the other day and said, write a blog post like Kate Toon. And it was like a caricature of my writing. It was all my stupid phrases in one. It sounded awful.
Sally:
That is brilliant.
Kate:
Yeah. and my, my team sometimes try and write like me and they, it's kind of quite awful 'cause they overdo it, but what it shows me is they're recognizing my phrases. So yeah, create your own little style guide would be another tip.
Sally:
Hearing you say that reminded me of how I was very heavy into the hairbrush microphone for quite a long time. Like a lot of my toss were hairbrush microphone. And I did a lot of, I always did.
Kate:
You mean like really, really a hairbrush?
Sally:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I haven't got one here, which is unusual, but I've got so many TikToks where I was just speak to a hairbrush.
Kate:
I love that
Sally:
And that's what I became known for for a while and I haven't been doing as much of those. However, I brought it out at a, a speaking engagement I did on the weekend to do a little bit of silly lip syncing.Had to be there, it was awesome. And somebody was like, Oh yes, I always remember you Sally with the hairbrush microphone.
Kate:
This is it. This is it. It can be a, you know, we've talked about stories and tone of voice, but it could be a signature item that you always wear or a certain greeting. Like when you start your podcast or whatever you're saying, you say Hello, whatever. You know, like Rove used to finish off his show saying, Say hello to your mum for me. You know, you don't, you can have a little catchphrase or something you say. So at the end of every one of my book podcasts, I say, Remember the world will wait, which is the mantra of my book. And I kind of wanna be associated with that phrase. So having catchphrases, having a hairbrush or whatever it may be. I think I once told people I liked hedgehogs. Right. And I tell you, I can't tell you the number of hedgehogs, I can't find them now. Oh, here's one. The number of people who send me hedgehogs now because I mentioned it once, you know, once or twice. I've become forever associated with hedgehogs. And you'll be hairbrushes, next time I see you, I'm bringing you a hairbrush.
Sally:
That's so funny.
Kate:
That's great. Because you know what that means? That means people know you, they like you, they trust you and they remember you. 'Cause You remember the little details about people you like, you know, you really do. Or people you really violently hate. So it's one or the other.
Sally:
Yeah. I love that. And do you also think that the older we get, the less we care about what people think about ourselves?
Kate:
I mean look, I would say that I still massively care. I'd love to say that I'm some kind of, you know, still cuts when people don't like you. But what I try and do is I try and hold myself somewhere in the middle so I don't let the praise take me too high. And therefore the negativity can't take me too low. I kind of bob around in the middle. I do what I do every day regardless of people's opinions of me. So it's not that it doesn't hurt, but I don't let it impact my work and my business.
Sally:
Ah, yes. There's this great quote, If we live for people's acceptance, we die by their rejection.
Kate:
You can't have a degree of popularity without having some degree of haters, you know? And as you get bigger and bigger, there's gonna be more people loving you, but there's also gonna be more people disliking you 'cause that's just way human nature. And you can't just go, well, all I want is the love. I don't want any of that negativity. 'cause That's just human nature. So you have to learn to put that in a little box or as I do screengrab it and share it on social media as content and then I don't have to come up with a post.
Sally:
Oh yes, I'm the same. When I get a mean comment, I'm like this.
Kate:
Lost the one the other day. What was it? You are, you are in, you've got one foot in the grave or something like that. What was the one about menopause.
Sally:
Menopause? Oh yes, it was the menopause one. It was you don't count. You've been in menopause since the Roman Empire. Suck it up.
Kate:
I mean, look, you gotta admit that's a pretty funny quote.
Sally:
It was so hilarious. And I was like, yes, I've been wanting to speak about periods. Here's my chance.
Kate:
Oh, was it? And you're like, thank you. Thank you little troll for giving me a whole great piece of concept.
Sally:
Yeah. And for a while there I was also doing the hate comment news where I would like be like a news reporter at the desk and I would read the comment.
Kate:
Yes, I love it. And I love your newsreader voice. And there's that whole thing on, I think it's Saturday Night Live, where it's like celebrities read mean Tweets.
Sally:
Yeah, yeah.
Kate:
And you know, literally people say the most dreadful things and they're just laughing and laughing. I think it's amazing. So you have to be able to laugh about this because really what kind of person takes time out of their day to sit and carefully craft a comment about you, someone they don't even know. That's their day. That's what they do with their day. Really. You have to feel a bit sorry for them. So you know, you can't not live your best life just because some weird dude called Allan in his garage might write a comment on your post, you know.
—
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Sally:
So your book is out now. Six figures in school hours. It's such a great read. And for somebody who is not a parent and I've decided not to have children, it was just a rollicking read. Like I was flicking through going, oh, I dunno how much of this is relevant. But it was so engaging because of your turn of phrase, because of your word choice. I'm not sure if you mentioned Allan, but you definitely did at the book launch. It's just such a funny thing to say.
Kate:
Yeah, it's funny 'cause my editor was going through the edit. I have my own editor, but the editor at the book company who doesn't know me was like, Did you mean to say this? Did you mean throughout the book? It was like, did you mean to say this? Did you mean this? I'm like, no, no, I meant that. Yeah, because I love to take normal idioms, you know, like the elephant in the room and change it into like the badger in the room. I mean that's not particularly funny one, but I love to take standard turns of phrase and mess with them. So you read it and you go, Huh? I love that moment where people go, oh, what did that say? And they read it again. And that to me is a great moment, you know, and I love little aside, so you're talking, talking, talking and then you go bub, bub, bub.
Kate:
And then you keep on talking. You know, like when you're doing a, when you're doing great speaking, when you see great speakers, one of the things I love with great speaking is the TED talk pause. You know, they walk across the stage and they get a sip of water and they're really just working out what they're gonna say next. Let's be honest. But I also love the speaker that can talk and then do an aside about what they're talking about. Like, wow, did I just say that? That's really weird. Okay, let's carry on. And I think you can do that in writing as well. So use of pauses and use of odd idioms and also almost breaking, is it the fourth wall or the third wall? I never remember
Sally:
The fourth wall. Yeah.
Kate:
The fourth wall. And actually talking to the audience. I mean you're talking to the audience the whole time, but then you talk to the audience.
Sally:
Yeah. You're self-aware of the performance. And Kate, what you also did vocally there just for people to listen is whenever you do an aside, all you do is drop the pitch of your voice and then return to the regular pitch. So it's kind of like you actually dip down in the pitch and then dip back up.
Kate:
Yeah, well done. Good for, I didn't realize I was even doing that. I love that.
Sally:
Yeah. It's like la la la. Little aside la Lala.
Kate:
The speakers I love are the ones that are self-aware. There's nothing worse than a speaker who sticks to a script, clutches the lectern and delivers that speech dead with no gaps and no pauses and no audience interaction. I love it when someone heckles me from the audience or shouts something out or does whatever. Great. It's like being a standup comedian. How you roll with those punches is really important on stage. So on podcast it's a bit easier 'cause you've got the audience is not talking back to you. But on stage, you know, I want audience interaction, but you've gotta be able to think quickly and on your feet and come back with a great retort. And that's quite challenging for a lot of people.
Sally:
Yeah. You do a lot of speaking and you've been out speaking, promoting your book recently as well. What has been the biggest lesson you could share?
Kate:
I think for me, because I speak on sort of subject matter expertise, you know, I'm putting myself out there and saying, I know about SEO I know about copywriting.
Sally:
Which which you do by the way if you SEO and copywriting. Yeah.
Kate:
They're kind of what I built my business on. But there is obviously a fear that someone in the audience is gonna call you out and say, That's not true. That doesn't happen. You don't know what you're talking about. And the thing that I've learned to accept is that yes, the collective knowledge of the room will be greater than my own. Yeah. There's gonna be someone somewhere in that room who knows more about that element than I do. That's okay. That I can stand up there. And I'm not meant to be an omnipotent orb of knowledge. I'm sharing my lived experience of this topic. And you cannot argue with my lived experience and also how to handle those objections. So if someone puts their hand up and says, you know, Hey, I don't think that's true and I don't think that's how it works.
Sally:
Has that happened?
Kate:
Yeah, yeah. Of course. To be able to come back and go, That's really interesting. Maybe we could pick that up after the presentation. Have a chat about that. I'd love to hear your opinion on that. I'm always open to learning. That shuts people down because that person just wanted to heckle. Yeah. And then someone else, the other one I remember seeing a man speaking at a conference and someone said, Hey, what I wanna ask you this question, blah, blah blah. And he went, I don't know the answer to that. He didn't say sorry, I dunno the answer to that. He didn't apologize. It didn't erode him. He just went, I don't know the answer to that. That was it. Full, complete sentence. It was absolutely fine for him not to know. You don't need to know everything. So I think that's it. The collective knowledge of the room is bigger than your own, and that's okay. You are there to share your lived experience and that if people have opinions and ideas are different to your own, acknowledge them, say that you're keen to learn and move on
Sally:
Such fantastic advice because it really combats that very common thought process of I don't know enough. No one can argue with our lived experience.
Kate:
Exactly. And you know, there are many ways to do the same thing. So if you go, Yep, that sounds like a really great idea. I hadn't thought of it that way. Thank you, thank you very much. There's nothing that shuts someone down more than agreeing with them and thanking them than if you go, actually I don't think that's true either. And then you get into a little debate, people can't keep going if you acknowledge them. And often the people who do try and heckle and be difficult in the audience, which is very rare by the way, anybody who's thinking of speaking, it's very, very rare in my experience. They really just want a bit of attention. So you've given them the attention, you've acknowledged them, you've acknowledged that their idea is great and then that's them done. The other thing I think as well is that as a speaker, we are generally on a stage, like there is a physical aspect to this, and I'm sure you've talked about this before.
Kate:
When people are above you, you tend to look up to them, right? So you are, you are looking up to them. There is a level of expectation. 99% of the audience is wishing you well. They are not hoping you will fail. They're not sitting there going, Oh, who she thinks she's speaking. The fact that you are on stage people accept that you have something to say. And, and I think that's the other thing to be conscious of. No one's sitting there waiting for you to mess up. Oh, and one other one, which is my favorite, is that no one knows what you were planning to say. So if you miss a point or miss a whole slide, that's fine. Like I'll often bring up a slide in my presentation and be like, I can't remember what I was supposed to say on the slide. So let's all just enjoy it for a minute, and then I move on. 'cause I've just forgotten what I was gonna say on that slide. 'cause I'm a human being. And I don't use notes, but no one knows that if I didn't draw attention to the fact that I'd forgotten it, no one would know 'cause they don't see my bullet points before I start.
Sally:
Exactly. It's all part of being your weird and wonderful self.
Kate:
Exactly. Just turn up, do you, and people are either I love you, I hate you, and there's nothing you can do about that.
Sally:
Oh, Kate Toon. So great. How can people work with you? Where can they find you?
Kate:
Well you can go to katetoon.com and you know, delve into the wonderful Toonaverse as I call it, so many different businesses and courses and podcasts. But yeah, katetoon.com.
Sally:
Amazing. Kate, was there anything else you wanted to add?
Kate:
No, I just think I encourage everybody to follow you on TikTok. 'cause you're amazing on TikTok. I love all your content there. And to be brave and, and give it a go. Have a little go at speaking. Start small and who knows, before you know it, you'll be up on stage being heckled. I'm joking.
Sally:
Love it. Kate Toon. Thank you so much for coming on That Voice Podcast.
Kate:
Thank you very much.