48. How I stopped stuttering

This is a must-listen episode, especially if you struggle with a stutter. Andrew Frodsham had a severe stutter and was 'basically mute' until the age of 19. He shares his incredible journey to speaking fluently, including his self-taught technique that blew my mind.

Download Andrew’s full story “I hate cheese pies!” HERE

Transcript

Sally: I'm calling it. This is my favorite episode of That Voice Podcast I've ever made. You're going to meet Andrew. Frodsham a man who suffered with a stutter so severely he was practically mute until the age of 19. Andrew generously shares his at times life threatening struggles with a stutter. And his self-taught technique that transformed his speaking. Stay tuned. You're going to hear it firsthand.

I'm Sally Prosser. You're listening to That Voice Podcast, no matter who you are or what you do, your voice matters. So unless you've sworn a lifetime vow of silence, this is the podcast for you.

One of the most common questions I get asked, especially on TikTok is how to stop a stammer or a stutter. Stammer being the British word and stutter, what we normally say in Australia and the US and I have an episode called How to help a stutter - it's ep 36, take a listen, I'll link to it in these show notes. And you can find those at www.thatvoicepodcast.com. So Andrew Frodsham reached out to me on TIkTok and said, Sal, I had a stutter and have worked to fix it. And he sent me a PDF outlining his story, the heartbreaking struggles and the fascinating technique he used to correct it. I was blown away and straightaway was on the email to say, Andrew, I have to have you on the podcast. And I can't wait to share our chat with you.

A little disclaimer, first, this is not medical advice. This is just Andrew's story. And what worked for him. If you are struggling with a stutter, please reach out to a speech pathologist. They will be your best first port of call and of course, stutter or not. If you'd like to build confidence in your speaking and learn lots of practical strategies to calm anxiety, talk with ease and form your words, then check out My Six Week Voice Makeover, just head to www.sallyprosser.com.au and put your email on the list. But let's not waste any more time. Andrew Frodsham welcome to That Voice Podcast.

Andrew: Thank you Sally, thanks for having me. So Yeah, it was it was interesting to see your sort of growth on TikTok and then just send you that chat to say, Oh, well, you know, would you be interested in someone that's overcome a stammer? And here we are.

Sally: Yep. Here we are indeed. So to start with, take us through when you first noticed your stutter?

Andrew: Yeah. I was a bit of a late bloomer in terms of when it comes to having a stutter, it seemed to start around six or seven, no rhyme or reason. Apparently that's quite late for someone to start. No real trauma in my life or anything like that. I just could not say my own name. I couldn't say anything with M's or S's, T's, V's. Any of what are called the explosive sounds like P and B and all those types of sounds. If I tried to say anything with an A in it I'd sound like I was panting. It was, it was just horrendous. I'd say the worst of it was when I was going through high school. And it just kind of stuck around until I was about 19.

Sally: So take us through, what were some of the struggles that you had growing up with a stutter? What were some of the situations you'd find yourself in?

Andrew: Phone has got to be the worst one, because you're literally picking up this device where you can't see somebody. And I couldn't say . In fact I've got to think about it now, but I couldn't say hi, this is Andrew or just even say like, hello. And I pick the phone up, stand there in silence, and then the other person would go hello hello? And by that time I'd worked up the courage to say, hi, sorry, my mum can't get to the phone at the minute. If I couldn't speak, I just put the phone down at that point, if they has sort of been waiting long enough. So phones were dreadful. Getting on a bus with another thing. If you had to say your fare. Back in the day, like I think it was eight pence so I couldn't say that. So I'd sort of jump on and throw my change in the thing and he'd go 'what's that?' And I'd go 'oh you know my fare and just don't talk to me and let me on the bus.'

Sally: Wow. And there was a time when you were having an asthma attack?

Andrew: Yes. Yes. I ah, that was, that was dreadful. That one really sticks in my mind because my mom obviously worked at a place called Howard Brothers. And that was two words. I just could not say it, it was no way I was going to be able to say that I'd started with an asthma attack or back in the day, you know, I didn't have any mobile phones called up what was directory services at the time. So I've got on the phone and I've gone (panting) and this chick thought I was some kind of pervert and just pulled the plug on me. So thankfully, my friends weren't too far away and they managed to get me an inhaler, but it was just, it was just dreadful, you know, there was no other way to do anything. Like I couldn't walk there, so yeah.

Sally: Oh, wow. Andrew - such an incredible story. It actually shows how a starter can be life threatening, but let's lighten the mood just a little. And can you share with us why you don't like cheese pies?

Andrew: Yes, there is. When I went to college, I actually got a really good time at college. It's just seemed to click with quite a few good friends there, but there was this particular bakery just around the corner from the college. And it did the most amazing meat pies. Obviously back in the day, meat pie could not say it. All I could say was cheese because for some reason, cheese is one of those words where it just, it doesn't sound like it's got a ch in it it's just like a nice sort of flow. And they did these cheese pies. They're not the greatest thing it's basically melted cheese in them I didn't particularly like them. From the walk from college to the shop. I had sort of taken the time to say, meat pie, meat pie. I'm going to say meat pie, and get into the shop if it was empty and there was no one in there I'd go can I have a meat pie, please? Get my meat pie and off I'd go. If I was in the queue and someone came in behind me, it was all over and I'd go, can I have a m-m-m-m cheese pie, please? Just get my cheese pie walk off looking at this cheese pie that I think particularly want. And what was amazing about that is the girls in the shop never actually picked it up. They never got I'm sure this guy actually wants a meat pie, so no. So yeah, if you offer me a cheese pie, it's not going to end well.

Sally: Oh, that is quite a funny anecdote, but it sounds like it was a real, really crippling in so many situations to do that. So now you're speaking on my podcast absolutely beautifully. How did you get rid of it?

Andrew: Yeah, so I started analyzing the way words are formed and I realised that when you stammer, you actually can say the very start of the word, but it's the middle of the word that you struggle with. So if someone asks me my name, I'd say, Oh, you know my names A-a-a-a and I'd struggle. I'm clearly saying the A part. It's the Ndrew part that I'm actually struggling with. So I thought I wonder why is that? So I started to really spell words in my head. Probably, sort of the best examples is, saying to make. So when you say too many, obviously T O M a K E, but then I found, I could say tomb without any problem. And I could say ache without any problem. So if you say 'tomb ache' together, it sounds like to make, so I was like, actually, that's really cool. How does that work?

Sally: Incredible.

Andrew: Yeah. And it works with any situation, so it's hard work. I'm not going to lie, but you know, even like simple things. Like if you want to tell someone, I love you when you stammer, you know, what's the point if you stammer because you've lost the moment. So for me, I would say the word isle - of - view. So it's I love you when you say all at once and it just sounds the same. So, and there's all kinds of little tricks like that.

Sally: Oh my goodness, Andrew, I absolutely love that. And I even use a similar technique when there are words that are difficult to pronounce. So one of them is, for example, rural, rural, rural is quite a difficult word to say, and I work with lots of reporters and they're finding themselves having to do the rural report, they're like Sal, I can't say this word rural. And so I did the same thing. I said, well, can you imagine a kangaroo say Roo and then Rel - rural.

And so was that a technique that had been shared with you by a speech pathologist or just one that you came up with on your own?

Andrew: Just one that I came up with on my own. The problem I found with speech pathology is they will treat the symptomatic sound. Like in my case, it was 90% of words. So where do you even start? But they would say, okay, you can't say mom so say M slowly. Well, that's not really helping me because I sound a bit special because I'm going Mmmum. And it doesn't, it just doesn't sound totally natural. So I thought there's gotta be an easier way and don't get me wrong. When I first started this. I mean, what would I have been, I would have been nearly 20, I'd say by the age of 25, I was getting really fluent. And now it's just a natural process.

Sally: And so was there any other techniques you used or was it just that breaking up of the words?

Andrew: For the first couple of years, I've talked a lot slower than I do now. I find if I'm having a bad day, like if I don't get enough sleep, I can really struggle. So I've got to slow my speech down. Now I'm probably speaking a lot slower today than I would do. You know, normally when you stammer as well, you tend to stagnate in the way that you speak, you don't move your head or anything like this, you just freeze with fear. So one of the biggest tips I can give you is just move your head. It helps throw all the sound as crazy as that sounds because you're struggling. You'll like if you watch someone that stammers watch them stand there, and they'll just be frozen and all, it's sort of moving into the front of your throat and the lips.

So you can just move your head, just like the simplest thing was just help throw your sound out, just got to slow it all down. I mean, I had to reinvent so many words. It's ridiculous. Even when I'm talking now I'm probably four or five sentences ahead searching for words that I might actually struggle with. And I'm splitting them all up into syllables. Things like this are actually really exhausting, just because I've got to think I've got to concentrate on all the time. I'm on zoom calls all the time. By the end of the day, I'm just take my headset off. I want to go to bed.

Sally: I think there's a lot of us who feel that way!

Andrew: Yep, just sort of human nature at the moment. But even things like, I'll be on a zoom call and I'll hear the slightest sound and it completely trips up my train of thought, and I will lose everything. And it's happened quite a few times and you just have this little second of panic and then you remember that. You're okay. But yeah, the technique itself it's not for everybody. I don't know if it would actually work. If it wasn't me. I just, I'm sort of genuinely fascinated with, with language and the way it works and they way you can split words up.

Sally: Yeah, it's totally fascinating. So, Andrew, how are you going now? Is your stutter something you still battle?

Andrew: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Even though I've overcome it in terms of learning a new technique. I still consider myself someone that has a stutter. Like I say, if I'm particularly tired, if I've been sick, if I'm just not like in the mood or whatever that particular day, it can still actually come out. I find it's not as prolonged as it was before. If I do, if I do start to stammer, that was one then actually, I don't know if you noticed, I can actually cut myself off and I'm quickly interject another word or change the inflection or whatever, and just kind of get over it. There's a line at the end of that thing that I sent you where, you know, people learn to walk and then they'll trip up. If you trip up, it doesn't mean you've stopped learning how to walk. You just look at what tripped you up and you carry on. And that's what I do. It's hard, you know, like every day I've got to work at it, but people are stunned. When I say, look, I used to basically be a mute until I was 19, not be able to talk and they go no, I don't believe you. And you know, you'd like to speak to my family and they're like Yeah. Like we thought he was doomed cause he wasn't going to be able to speak for the rest of his life, but here I am.

Sally: Oh Andrew, such an incredible story. Amazing. What would you say to anyone out there who is struggling with a stutter or a stammer and they just can't see the light at the end of the tunnel?

Andrew: Yeah. it is hard because every situation is slightly different and there's varying degrees of stammers as well. Mine was quite severe. I've got friends that stammer and they consider themselves stammerers, but it's more of like a social stammer. The best piece of advice I'd gave is just slow yourself down. Think about what you’re saying, try to split your words up. So going back to that example about, to make, find words that you can say and just read books aloud as well is quite a good tip because you'll find when you're trying to think of things to say yourself, it's really hard to come up with things on the fly in your head because you'll avoid those words if you stammer, if you get a book, if it's a technical book or words that you would never say, normally just try to read them. Don't read them by yourself. Try to read them in front of a mirror, look at what your face is doing. Look at what your lips are doing. Look at what your neck's doing. Start to move your head and then try to progress to maybe doing that in front of your brother or your sister or your mum or your dad or whatever. Because one of the other strange things about when you stammer is you never stammer when you're by yourself, it's like this nerves thing actually kicks in and you're afraid to stammer in front of people. And that makes you worse because you start getting nervous about it and start thinking about it and start thinking you're going to trip up.

Sally: Such incredible advice in there. And I recommend everybody to do more reading aloud because our brain is moving so much faster than our mouth. And it's one of these skills that we don't practice enough.

Andrew: Yeah. And one thing that is a struggle as well is you, when you try the technique that I'm using is you tend to lose your cue of where to breathe because your words are slightly different. You're not going to get the full stop and the comma in your head. It's hard to explain. Cause I actually spell the words out as I'm talking. So sometimes I can kind of run away and that's when I'll trip myself up. But I tend not to breathe when I should. I can't remember who actually said this, I think it's just a general advice around talking is that we talk on the out-breath but we think on the in-breath is probably the best thing you can do, because if you get stuck, just stop talking, just shut up. That's the best thing to do. Because if you start trying to find your way of it, you're going to stammer.

Sally: I love that. So breathing in is also called inspiration. We inspire and so you inspire yourself with the thought and then you expire. Hopefully you don't expire! You talk on the out-breath.

Andrew. I'd also like to ask you, what advice would you give to people who might know someone with a stutter or a stammer? What is the best thing to do if you are talking to somebody who's struggling?

Andrew: I mean, honestly, if someone, you know, stammer and they've not brought it up in conversation, just ask them, they will be absolutely dying for you to ask them about it. Because as strange as it sounds, as soon as they start talking about it and they feel at ease about the stammer and not having to hide it, they're not going to stammer because all they're thinking is, Oh my word, I don't want to stammer. If I'm not like I'm going to look stupid, just have that conversation with them. Just say, look, I've noticed you're struggling. Is there anything we can do? Especially if it's like a colleague at work, one of the most terrifying things when you stammer actually is when you get on a zoom call and they say, okay, everybody, we're going to go around and introduce everybody. And you just go, no, this is like a nightmare. Because the one thing you can't change when your stammer is people's names, you know, you can't say, well, I'm going to call Steven David. It just doesn't work. And Steve's one of those dreadful words that people with stammers will really struggle with cause it's S T and E all in the same thing. So just have a chat with them. Just say, look, I've noticed. And they won't feel bad because it's, it's going to be this daily struggle for them. So the fact that you're taking an interest is going to really help them, I feel.

Sally: Ah, interesting. Other thing I was reading is that you shouldn't jump in and finish sentences.

Andrew: Yes. that used to drive me insane. One of my mum's friends who's sadly passed away. Now she would do that to me all the time. I'd say something like, I'm just going to put this on the b-b-b-b and she'd go BAG? And I'd go, no, I'm just going to put this on the b-b-b- BOX? No, I'm just going to put this on the bottom shelf. You know, it was just like, she'd get it wrong every time. And it was used to drive me insane so please, I know it's frustrating because as the listener, you want to help that person out. You want to get them across the line, but it is so frustrating because you're basically taking that person's voice you're actually talking for them as an individual. So it's it's like if you saw someone on crutches and you suddenly went along and picked them up, you know what I mean? It's just do not do it.

Sally: What a great comparison. Oh, fantastic. Andrew, is there anything else you'd like to add?

Andrew: I guess one thing I'd say is you'd be surprised how many people out there that are actually doing well. You know, used to stammer. The guy that does the voice of Mufasa in Lion King and Darth Vader, James Earl Jones, he stammered. Winston Churchill stammered. King George, the sixth, obviously stammered - the film, The King's speech. In fact, that's another piece of advice. If you do stammer, I would watch that movie. I can't get through that film without bursting into tears because of the sheer frustration that comes off Colin Firth. But that's an amazing film if you stammer, you know, because you can just sense look right at the very start of the film, he has to make this speech in a crowd. And the actual microphone that he's speaking into has got this really bad echo. So everything he says, is just amplified and he stammers at the very start and you just, Oh, you cringe, as someone that's stammered and you think. How did you manage to do that? It's incredible.

Sally: Yeah. I get emotional in that film as well because his teacher is very similar to what I do. And it really speaks to the heart of why I really want to help people speak because if you can do that confidently, it absolutely can change your life.

Andrew: Absolutely. And that's why, like I have this strange thing of what, because I've never been in that situation. I don't understand why people that are fluent can't public speak? Because it's a completely different sets of feelings for me. Like I'll be public speaking thinking, do not stammer, do not trip up on this word you've got coming up and that's kind of where the panic comes on. So I think if I was perfectly fluent and I didn't have this constant thought process, what would hold me back in terms of public speaking? I can't even imagine?

Sally: So what are people complaining about?!

Andrew: Yeh exactly, just get up there! It's just, yeah, it's very strange. Like I've had a few moments like that, where like, I feel like I'm going to trip up. And then you do panic. But you've just got, like I said, you've got to basically use the techniques that anyone will tell you. It's just stop, you know, take a second and carry on.

Sally: And do you have any speaking goals? You've now I've been on a podcast, have you gotten your sights set on doing any public speaking?

Andrew: Tick, tick to the podcast I never thought never thought I'd be on a podcast? Not really. I'm sort of fairly comfortable with how I'm sort of perceived at work. One of the problems you do get with the way I talk is because it's so exhausting, there'll be some days where you're just not in the mood for talking. So you can come across as fairly grumpy or surly because you just don't want to talk about particular day. And it's not because you're being rude to that individual. It's just because you don't want to talk cause it's so hard. That's sort of one point I'd like to improve of myself and I'd love to get better at public speaking. Strangely enough, part of my job, I have to go around to different schools and train people on a product and I've got to stand up in front of, you know, 40, 50 people. But I think because I'm the expert kind of going into that situation that helps because I know what I'm talking about. And I'm like, I know what I'm going to say. If someone asks me a question out of left field, that can trip me up a little bit. I mean, if you go inside my head, like you'd probably want out in about six seconds. Just the amount of stuff that's going on in there.

Sally: I think that's lots of us. Yeah. That inner voice. Mel Robbins has a great line where she says, if we put a megaphone to our head and broadcast what we say to ourselves, we'd be institutionalized.

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes I feel like a bit of like a fraudster because of the way I talk. It's not my natural, well, sorry, I shouldn't say that because it is my natural voice now, but I probably sound a lot different now than I did back in the day because of the way I've sort of overcome the speech patterns and stuff. So you do get a bit of an of almost like an Imposter Syndrome you think, Oh my God, how am I actually up here giving this speech to people when I should be in the corner crying somewhere? You know, it's just, I just can't come to terms with it sometimes, but yeah, I am particularly proud of my sort of journey. I wouldn't change anything. I think it's made me the person I am today I'm fairly considered. I don't you know, get into arguments much because what's the point, you know, like I'm gonna, so I'll lose out there because I don't want to argue. Like you sort of listen a lot more. You take things in a lot more, you're a lot more considered in your responses.

Sally: Well, you absolutely should be so proud of yourself, especially to take a self-taught technique and get to where you've got to is absolutely incredible. Now, Andrew, would you be willing to share with our listeners the story that you sent me?

Andrew: Yeah, absolutely. Like as good as this chat is, I think there's a lot more detail in that because I talk about the techniques and I'm more than happy. It's got my email address in there. If you want to jump on a call, you want to have a chat with me. People with a stammer will go, there's no way I'm going to ring you what's up with you, but you know, if you do want to call me or you want to reach out, please feel free because I know what it's like. I mean, back in the day and I'm not going Oh woe is me, but there was no internet. Like I couldn't research this. So I couldn't check this out for myself, but there's so many different things out there. And there's also great advice and there's also really poor advice. So find what works for you. Definitely read my story. I'd be more than happy to share that and just contact me, just, you know, just reach out and we'll have a chat.

Sally: That is an incredibly generous offer and I will put a link to Andrew's story in the show notes, which you can find at www.thatvoicepodcast.com. Andrew, thank you so much for joining That Voice Podcast.

Andrew: Thank you, Sally. It's been an absolute pleasure and I mean that, even though I've been talking a lot, it's been absolutely fantastic. Thank you so much.

Sally: Thanks for listening to That Voice Podcast. For episode details straight to your inbox, leave your email at www.thatvoicepodcast.com.